Managing up is defined by the Harvard Business Review as, “Being the most effective employee you can be, creating value for your boss and your company.” While it is a good skill to have, in this episode of Business Edge, special guest Alison Jennings argues that there needs to be a balance. She proposes that this balance can be achieved by finding a boss who is a good fit for you and is knowledgable about your role. She also speaks to how exactly to do this during the interview process so that interviewees can spot potential red flags before they commit to a role.
Alison Jennings [00:00:00] The level of which you have to manage up should be a key indicator on whether or not it's the right position and the right boss for you. If you're spending more than 50% of your time managing up, it's probably not the right job.
Finn Lambouris [00:00:13] You're listening to Business Edge, the podcast for professionals looking to excel in the workforce. In each episode, our guests take a deep dive into their personal and professional experiences to give you an edge in the marketplace. This podcast is brought to you by the Commonwealth Leadership™ Alliance.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:27] Good morning. Welcome back to all of our listeners. This is the Business Edge podcast. Chrissy is here from Miami. 61st Convention here, we're live. Just got out of Celebration of Brotherhood. And with us today, we have Alison Jennings. Hi, Alison. How are you?
Alison Jennings [00:00:41] I'm good. How are you?
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:42] Good. Can you please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself professionally?
Alison Jennings [00:00:46] So I am currently the Senior Director of Finance for The Good Kind Company, which is a health and beauty contract manufacturer. So we produce clean beauty products, particularly in the deodorant space, all natural for brands who don't have their own fill lines.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:01:02] Oh, okay. Perfect. And you're in Austin, Texas. Correct?
Alison Jennings [00:01:05] And I am in Austin, Texas.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:01:06] Perfect. And what are some of the jobs you've had before this?
Alison Jennings [00:01:09] So I started my career in government contracting, working for Lockheed Martin. So the big machine. And things worked as a finance manager there over several D.O.D. contracts, state and government contracting working with some intelligence companies as a controller and made my way out of there into the startup world. Worked for a soap company as their controller. Moved to Austin. Worked for another startup and ended up in consulting for several years, working with startups, high growth, really helping to shape and build their finance departments. And you know, most recently prior to this new job, worked in the craft beer industry for a packaging distributor.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:01:51] And what was that like? Craft beer's taking off, microbreweries. What's that culture like?
Alison Jennings [00:01:56] The culture is what you would expect it to be for craft breweries. So it was learned very quickly that I didn't need to have a beer every day at lunch, even though the rest of the office was. It was also--I started there the week the pandemic hit and everything was shutting down, so much like most of the world that started working from home, I went from working from home 70 to 80% of the time to in the office full time, because we were essential employees and essential workers, because everyone needed to get their beer out of tanks into cans, or it would have been devastating and nothing was open. So it wasn't just breweries, but fountain soda is 60% of Coca-Cola's business and there are no stadiums. And so everything is going to a can and everyone is looking for a can, so.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:02:41] That's why there was an aluminum shortage.
Alison Jennings [00:02:43] That's why there was an aluminum shortage.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:02:45] Fascinating. I thought it was simply a supply chain issue, just not able to move it. But it was because there was a huge uptick in demand.
Alison Jennings [00:02:52] Correct.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:02:53] That's fascinating, because when you said that you guys were essential employees, I was like, how is beer essential? I know a lot of people increased their drinking during the pandemic, but that makes total sense.
Alison Jennings [00:03:02] Yeah, so it's the food and beverage. And it was also, it was beer was where they were built, but sparkling water and energy drinks and everything, everyone needed to go into a can. And it was at the same time there's the push away from plastic bottles. So there was something like a 2 billion cans shortage. It's crazy.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:03:22] That's insane. I know my friends that love Coke Zero were dying because they couldn't find it anywhere. There was a lot of S.O.S., Facebook post. "If you see this, buy it all and give it to me," which was part of the problem.
Alison Jennings [00:03:31] Well the other thing that was interesting in it is at the time, due to some changes that Mexico made, all of the soda companies had to rebrand and change their ingredient list, which had already been planned. But any capacity that normally would have been excess capacity was being used because there was a complete shift and move out that rolled out in Mexico, like, Q2 of 2020.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:04:03] That's fascinating. That's not even what we're here to talk about today, but I find that very interesting. So let's transition a little bit into what we are here to talk about today. So you've had a variety of different leaders and bosses, you being in a finance control or CFO position. A lot of times you've been reporting directly to the CEO. Startups are completely different. You've had, you know, good variety. And I know you and I have had conversations about good leadership and bad leadership, but a component of that is finding a boss that is a coach and a mentor, not just a boss. So talk to us a little bit about what the difference is to you, and then we'll go from there.
Alison Jennings [00:04:41] I think for me it's sort of three things. So particularly in a startup world, your boss a lot of times can be your friend. So it's somebody that you know or that has hired you.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:04:51] Oh, 'cause they brought you along.
Alison Jennings [00:04:52] They've brought you along.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:04:53] That's true. Startups a lot of times, the beginning team is that person's personal friends or network,.
Alison Jennings [00:04:58] Right. So it's a friend. Particularly in finance, a lot of times in the startup world, your boss is somebody who has zero finance experience.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:05:07] Right. That makes sense to me.
Alison Jennings [00:05:07] So it's really hard to, when you're reporting directly to a CEO who doesn't know what a balance sheet looks like. So I think that's one is, your boss shouldn't be your friend. And that is a key indicator first. I think the other thing that I've learned is identifying whether or not your boss really knows what your job is. I think that's really important. Have they done your job? Do they have the experience and the background to have done your job? And I think the third is in looking and identifying a good boss is, where were they before? So where have they come from? Have they spent their whole career at one company and they've grown in that company? Is this a company that they started? Have they moved around a lot? Is this a, you know, when I worked in government contracting, we had a CEO for our division who was hired because he was the former U.N. ambassador. But he was hired because he was the former U.N. ambassador, not necessarily because he had a lot of insight into government contracting from that side. So for me, that would have been hard to report to him, because I don't know that he would have understood what I did, but he wasn't hired for that skillset.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:06:16] That purpose.
Alison Jennings [00:06:17] Right.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:06:18] Yeah, that's a good point is that in your career, you'll find some people that are in positions for specific reason, not necessarily related to the job sometimes.
Alison Jennings [00:06:27] And I think it depends too, like, where in your career you are.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:06:30] Great point.
Alison Jennings [00:06:30] So earlier in my career, I needed somebody who could help me navigate what are the politics in an office? And also who knew that if I was doing journal entries or putting out financials or putting out reporting that they knew what needed to be in that reporting. Because I was 22, 25. I didn't have that experience.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:06:51] Yeah, you had textbook experience.
Alison Jennings [00:06:52] I had textbook experience. And I--and again at 25, I thought I knew everything versus, you know, later in the career is how do I find somebody who, I don't need my boss to tell me how to run payroll. But there are pieces of it that I do need to know, like, what happens when you take a company public, or what happens during a major merger acquisition? What is the interaction when you're talking to somebody and asking them for $25 million investment and what does that look like? So it's shifting what you're looking for as you go to for those more hard skills.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:07:29] No, that's definitely a great point too. Where you are in your career, you have different needs and you have different coaching and mentoring needs.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:07:37] You've been listening to Business Edge, brought to you by Alpha Kappa Psi Professional Business Fraternity and sponsored by Synergos Association Management Company. Now let's get back to the conversation.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:07:51] Talk to us a little bit--I'm gonna go back and ask a couple questions related to how to find those people. But talk a little bit about managing up.
Alison Jennings [00:07:58] I think managing up is a skill people need to learn. And I think it's how you manage up and it's understanding when it's appropriate to manage up and when it's not. If I am reporting to a CFO that is very experienced, which I did at Soapbox, there is very little managing up that I needed to do because Janet knew my job inside and out, and she had done it. And she'd also identified, here are the things that I need from you, and here are the things that I can help you with. And it was a different sort of managing up. It was managing up in a "here are my expectations and here's where I want to grow and learn." And making sure that I had the appropriate face time with her and things of that nature. In other positions, managing up was very different and it was a, "this is how I am the subject matter expert. And this is why I'm the subject matter expert." And it's also sticking to that. I've been in meetings where the head co-founder just completely, you know, derail a meeting and stuff. And I walked out of the meeting and was like, "I'm not--you can't speak to me like that. You owe me an apology. I will not--I'm not going to sit through a meeting and have you, you know, do all of this in front of other people and read the room in a way that you're not recognizing my experience and my expertize. So I think it's figuring that out and reading the room, reading who it is, and also at the level of which you have to manage up, should be a key indicator on whether or not it's the right position and the right boss for you. If you're spending more than 50% of your time managing up, it's probably not the right job.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:09:36] Correct. That's a great point. Yup. There's times where, you know, especially in fundraising, for example, there was times I needed something specific from the CEO. So that was usually how I managed up is like, "you're going to be in this meeting with this donor, here's some things I need you to know about them, and here's some things I need you to bring back to the organization so we can, you know, what have you." And you're exactly right, finding that right time to manage up and being, you know, that asset to the organization in that way. So let me talk to you a little bit about how you spot those people out in the interview process. The reason why I say that is one of my positions when I was going through the interview process, to equate it to a feeling like it's that "Oh my God, love at first sight," like, this person is going to be an amazing fit for me. They're talking all the right things about leadership that I like. They use a tool to really kind of define what people's leadership style is, so at least everybody on the team is talking in the same language. Like they seem very much servant leadership oriented. They were just like talking all the things and I was like, "Oh my goodness. Finally in my career, I'm getting that person that's going to be an incredible partner and incredible boss and a mentor and a coach." Turned out to be the complete 100% opposite. Used these leadership assessments to punish people, to demean people. It was just a horrible train wreck of an experience. What are some tips that you have for listeners in the interview process? How people can kind of see through the smoke and mirrors and get to the heart of who's going to be a good mentor and boss?
Alison Jennings [00:11:03] I think there's a couple. I think the first is research them on LinkedIn. If I have someone coming in for an interview for me, unless it's a very entry level position, if I don't see that they've looked me up on LinkedIn, it's a red flag. You're interviewing the company as much as they are interviewing you. So looking and seeing where have they been? How long have they been there? And even some understanding of is it an upward trajectory? What have they done? Are there things that you see that they've done and the type of companies they work for and the level? So my current boss was the former Global President for Digital and e-comm for Ralph Lauren. You don't get into that role if you don't know what you're doing.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:11:47] Right.
Alison Jennings [00:11:48] And so looking at his resume, I was like, this is somebody that I think I want to work for based on the experience, I think I can learn something from him. The second is the tone of the conversation. How much are they talking to you versus you talking to them and asking about like, what is your leadership style? What are your clear expectations of how we are going to communicate once, you know, boots on the ground? I think the other thing is, who else are you interviewing with? It's hard if it's an entry level position because a lot of times you're not talking to as many people.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:12:20] Right.
Alison Jennings [00:12:21] I interviewed with a lot of people at the company and looking at who has come to the company, when and who else are you working with? So why did those people come? So one of the indicators for me is I have a colleague who is a Senior Vice President who came from QVC. People don't leave QVC after 15 years for just any job. This was a big risk for her. And she moved because of our boss, and that was a key indicator for me when I talked to her I said, "Why did you leave QVC?" And she was very honest about that. I think you can also tell who else is interviewing and look who has come to that company. The other thing, depending on the level, is look on LinkedIn and see who they're connected to. Where do they work? There is nothing saying that if you're interviewing at Coca-Cola, that you can't contact somebody who works there. And we have this great network of brothers. Ping somebody. You're not asking them for a job. You're saying "I'm interviewing at your company, do you have any insights? This is who I'm interviewing with. Do you know them? You know, what would you say about them?" And a lot of times people will answer and tell you and give you sort of the good, the bad, the ugly on that.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:13:31] Or if they don't know them, they'll find somebody else that does.
Alison Jennings [00:13:33] Right and connect you there and say, you know, this is, you know, I think also have an honest conversation of how you want to be managed and what you need. Because you can't be a good manager or have a good manager if you don't.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:13:46] Yes, that's a great point. There are some managers that approach it cookie cutter, like "this is my management style, so I'm going to manage everybody this way," and that doesn't work for everybody. We were talking to a guest earlier that was talking about, "I have to get to know my employees because somebody that likes to be recognized in public and can boost their performance. If I do that for somebody else that doesn't like it, it actually demotivates them." So you really have to know that what works for one person doesn't work for another. So that's a great point. And learning that and that self awareness of, "how do I need to be managed, what do I need in terms of feedback or growth opportunities or things of that sort?"
Alison Jennings [00:14:22] I think also everyone gets asked in an interview process, "where do you see yourself in 3 to 5 years? What are your long term goals?" You should go in and know what that answer is and be able to flip it around and say, When I was interviewing for this job, I said, "This is my goal. My goal is to sit on corporate boards. This is where I want to be. What will it take to get there?" And we had that open conversation and that recognition of, "this is what it's going to be" because a good boss doesn't want you to stay in your role.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:14:57] Yes, absolutely.
Alison Jennings [00:14:58] Like if someone says, "well, I'm hiring you as a staff accountant, and I want you to stay as a staff accountant," I know that means they don't want to grow and develop you, because I would rather have a great employee that grows out of their position and leaves than somebody who doesn't want to grow and doesn't want to develop.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:15:14] Very good point. Very good point. So here on the Business Edge we have a signature question. Tell us about a time when your values were challenged, what happened and how did you handle it?
Alison Jennings [00:15:23] So when I first moved to Austin, I worked for a lingerie company.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:15:27] Mm hmm. I remember that.
Alison Jennings [00:15:29] Yeah. It is not as--
Chrissy Vasquez [00:15:31] That's what you moved to Austin for, Correct?
Alison Jennings [00:15:32] That's when I moved to Austin for. It is not as sexy as it seems. Everybody thought it was real cool and, you know, found some things financially that didn't add up for me. The ways they were recognizing some revenue and how they were running the business. And there were a lot of things that had happened behind the scenes that I didn't know about during the interview process that they basically kept hidden from me.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:15:53] Oh, interesting.
Alison Jennings [00:15:55] And I was told by their vice president that I needed to do something. And I said, "I won't do it. I just won't." And, you know, luckily for me, I've got, you know, some great mentors like Eileen and some people and I called them and said, "this is what they want me to do." And they said, "You can't do that. Like, the IRS says no." And I stuck to my guns and said "I won't do it." I went and I, you know, I lost my job. I mean, that's what it was. They severanced me out and I don't regret it at all. Because quite frankly, I don't look good in orange or stripes. So, and you know, I learned a lot from it. I also learned from a manager in a company role. I walked in and within, you know, the first 48 hours on the job, I learned, here are all of the things that I didn't know. And when I left the job, learned things like the major CPA firm wouldn't issue financials for them. I'm like, "okay, this is not where I need to be." And a paycheck is not that important.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:16:57] No. Your integrity is not worth it. Yeah.
Alison Jennings [00:16:59] Yeah. It's just not that important. So I think that was one of the things that I learned that it doesn't matter what the title is or how cool the job is or what it is that's... Putting yourself at that sort of risk is not worth, it's just not worth it.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:17:14] Absolutely. Good for you. Absolutely. You know, I've lost my job twice in my life. And both times I think the messaging of what I got and what was really going on underneath were different, you know, in my heart. And both times I followed my personal values and integrity and did not--that did not align with where the leadership was or the leader was. And ultimately, I know it cost me my job, but like you said, it's just not worth it. And I can look back and say I can learn lots of things about that experience. And I did. But at the end of the day, I don't regret it because I stood up for values that the organization said they had. You know, and I made sure those were upheld, at least in my decision.
Alison Jennings [00:17:56] Absolutely.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:17:57] Yeah. And so you can go to sleep at night? Absolutely. You go to sleep at night. You can look yourself in the mirror. And you're right. You'll find another job. We just spoke to somebody earlier that said, you know, "in an interview I went into, I gave them very upfront, look, here's a mistake I made. Here's where we're fixing it." And ultimately, that's why they got the job. So I think the right fit company and boss-wise would actually look at that more admirable than having this perfect track record.
Alison Jennings [00:18:23] Right.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:18:24] So. Well, thank you, Alison, for joining us. We really appreciate it. Thanks for your insight. We look forward to seeing where you go. Thank you.
Alison Jennings [00:18:30] Thank you.
Finn Lambouris [00:18:33] Thanks for listening to Business Edge. If you have questions, comments or topic suggestions for us, email businessedge@akpsi.org.