Explore the world of startups with this week’s Business Edge guest: Michael Otis! Co-hosts Chrissy and Nicole talk with Michael about startup accelerators such as Y Combinator, identifying how to make startups more successful, and the differences between working at startups vs. established companies.
Michael Otis [00:00:00] If you can't summarize what your business does in two sentences, no one will be able to understand it. And that's important for both investors and customers. Fundamentally, understanding what your business does and being able to communicate it succinctly is really, really critical, and it's surprisingly difficult to succinctly and clearly summarize what your entire business does in two sentences. Think about your market size. Think about who your customers are. What are the demographics that you're going after? How are you going to get in touch with them? What are your marketing channels?
Finn Lambouris [00:00:25] You're listening to Business Edge, the podcast for professionals looking to excel in the workforce. In each episode, our guests take a deep dive into their personal and professional experiences to give you an edge in the marketplace. This podcast is brought to you by Alpha Kappa Psi professional business fraternity.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:40] Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Business Edge podcast. This is Chrissy Vasquez joined by Nicole Klemp today. How are you doing, Nicole?
Nicole Klemp [00:00:46] I'm good, Chrissy. How are you?
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:48] Good. I'm excited. We have Michael Otis joining us today. Hi, Michael, thanks for joining us.
Michael Otis [00:00:54] Hey Chrissy, Hey Nicole, thanks so much for having me.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:56] Absolutely. So can you give our listeners an overview of who you are and how you got to be where you are.
Michael Otis [00:01:03] Yeah, I'll try to keep that pretty condensed. So I guess relevant for our listeners. So I was a business major at Wake Forest back in 2009-2013. While I was there, I started my first business. It was a K through 12 learning center did a lot of SAT ACT prep kind of stuff. I always wanted to be an entrepreneur. That was my dream from a small kid and it was a crash course experience in the year and a half, I was running that learning center, both good and bad, and I'm very glad that I had that experience when I did so that I would be more prepared to a certain degree for what I'm doing now. Went on to Internet, eBay and their Corp Dev and Strategy Group. I started my full time career at KPMG and their advisory practice. So doing the strategy consulting thing, flying across the country, living in hotel rooms and on airplanes for two and a half years. Got a little burnt out doing that, as is, the typical story. Was pulled to a couple of start ups in the Atlanta area. They're both now unicorns. I was employee number 100 or so at the first one, employee number 12 with the second one. And after about nine months of the second one, I decided, all right, I'm ready to go, do this on my own. So I left to start what is called Procoto about two years ago. It's a sourcing and procurement platform geared toward smaller businesses. So, really similar model to what HubSpot did in the early days, but for sourcing software instead of CRMs, and we got into Y Combinator around this time last year, came out of that, raised some money, and now we're hiring employees and doing the whole thing trying to build a company.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:02:32] Fascinating. Thank you.
Nicole Klemp [00:02:34] Do you want to- for those that aren't familiar, do you want to talk a little bit about what Y Combinator is and how that helps companies get started?
Michael Otis [00:02:42] Yeah. So Y Combinator is probably the most well known startup accelerator and startup accelerators are these programs that are typically run by former startup founders themselves, investors, maybe some financial folks involved. And the whole premise is it's a condensed, anywhere from a few weeks to a few months period in which these more experienced startup folks will train and educate these more junior or less experienced, probably more accurate, less experienced startup founders. And really, it's a I can use the term crash course, it really gets them on the ground running much faster. It gets them introduced to investors, gives them a sense of what is important in their early days in terms of hiring and developing product roadmaps and how to raise money and how to pitch investors and all of that stuff. And I mentioned that I was employee number 12 at a startup and I thought I had a good idea of what I was doing starting my own company. The first year to three years where you're getting to five employees is kind of a black hole, and if you've never done it before there is a tremendous amount of things to learn and it's very rewarding, but there's a lot of things to learn. So I'm very appreciative that we got admitted acceptance to Y Combinator. Something like 12 to 15,000 companies apply each batch. There's two batches each year and they accept around one percent. So, didn't think we had a shot at it. I still think it was a lot of luck involved. I'm not sure how much of it was merit based. To give them credit, I'm sure it's very merit based, but to disparage us, I'm sure there was a lot of luck involved. And so we're very fortunate to be accepted and go through that experience and I've learned a tremendous amount and I'm very appreciative of all it.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:04:15] Wow, that's impressive. Congratulations. So talk to us a little bit about how you identified the needs for the company that you wanted to start. Did you see that in your work prior leading up to that, that there was a gap or talk to us a little bit about that?
Michael Otis [00:04:29] Absolutely. So there are, to really oversimplify it, I think maybe two major buckets of entrepreneurs, one that are the Steve Jobs types, the complete visionaries who see this world that doesn't exist today, but they know it has to come to existence at some point. And then there are others who are more proficient at just recognizing problems and solving those problems in a more efficient way. I don't think I will ever be the Steve Jobs type. I, maybe to my own detriment, look at every single thing in my life and think about how can I make this better? So that was my learning center that I mentioned earlier was a similar idea. There were a lot of, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of education, but a lot of learning centers employ people who unfortunately are surpassed by the students that they're educating pretty early on in the program, so the students tend to plateau. So you have parents spending 20, 30 thousand dollars so that their kid does a little bit better on the SAT. And they plateau after three or four weeks. So I recognize those problems and I won't go into the whole pitch that I gave back in the day, but found ways to improve upon those so that it was more attractive to both students and parents. The idea for Procoto came as I was at these two previous startups that are both these broker bottle tech enabled businesses, so their software companies, but they're really connecting buyers with vendors. So they are operating in the middle. So in order to really participate in both sides of that transaction, I was working with the sales team to submit sourcing events, submit our fees for a giant Fortune 500 companies, Walmarts, Targets, Best Buys. And then on the other side, we're working with these much smaller vendors in order to provide those services to these bigger companies. So we were running our own smaller sourcing events with these much smaller companies. So I had the side by side comparison of what software are these guys using? What if these guys- it's a visual medium, not a visual medium here on a podcast. The customers, what they're using in terms of big six, seven figure sourcing platforms. What kind of process they're running. How they conduct an RFP. And then on the other side, these much smaller vendors, what are they doing? They're stuck in excel and email and text messages and phone calls, even though they have the same exact problems. They just can't afford these big, expensive solutions that are really built for large enterprises. So I was staring at that side by side for years. I'd like to think I'm a great problem solver, but it took me a long time to say, OK, I need to go fix this myself. But eventually I did and said, OK, well, these guys need a solution too, why is nobody building something for them, let's go do that.
Nicole Klemp [00:06:50] Awesome. So how many employees do you have now currently and how do you hope to grow over the next few years?
Michael Otis [00:06:58] So we are at three as of a couple of weeks ago. We are actively hiring front end engineers now. So anybody listening, if you know anybody who might be a good fit, we're looking for JS special front end engineers. So as of this year, the plan is to really scale according to our progress. So realistically, we're probably hiring a couple of engineers the next two or three months. But a quick way for a start up to end its existence earlier than it should is to over hire before your progress warrants it. So that was one of the lessons that we took away from Y Combinator, one of their their parting messages as we were wrapping up the program is, look, if you- you can raise money and you can go hire 12 people today. But if you don't have the growth to support paying those 12 people for the next 24 months, that's a great way to end your business before you can give yourself a chance. So I would love to be at 10 to 15 employees by the end of the year, but if progress dictates we're at six to eight. So be it. We'll continue to grow at the pace that it warrants. But if we're at 15 to 20, fantastic, things are looking great, we're probably raising more money at that point. So we'll see. We have a wide range of goals, but it depends on candidly my doing a good job selling. So we'll see how I do this year, I guess.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:08:10] So in terms of when you went to hire your first employee, I'm sure that there was a lot of consideration given. Is now the right time? Talk to us a little bit about what it was like pulling the trigger to hire your first employee.
Michael Otis [00:08:22] Sure. So we wanted to make sure we had a certain number, we hit a certain number in recurring revenue to make sure that we have customers who are engaged, who are using the platform that are giving us reason to believe we're trending down the right track. When you raise and I'll take a back step here and explain different rounds of fundraising quickly. So typically when you come out of an accelerator, you raise a pre-seed round or a seed round. A pre-seed round is, let's call it, south of a million dollars. A seed round varies significantly, now let's call it a million to three, four million. And your goal after you raised the seed or the pre-seed or both is to work toward what's called product market fit, which is when customers are just begging to use your product and you're really having a hard time to keep up. That's an indicator that, look, I have a business that's ready to grow. So your goal is to continue to progress toward that point. And then you have certain financial metrics that you want to hit before you raise a series A round. And then the pressure really starts to mount in terms of meeting investor goals and timelines and hiring and a lot of those things. So in terms of hiring our first employee, we had that mindset of look, we want to have at least some, some guidance that we're trending toward product market fit and we have the capacity for them to be busy for the amount of time that we- to warrant what we're paying them. And part of the challenge of hiring an early employee, too, is they're going to have a pretty significant impact on the direction of the company this early on. So there's three of us all working out of our living rooms. And the third person is going to have a tremendous impact on where the product goes in the immediate future and, hell, on the culture of the company too. And so it was really important to get to know this person as a human being in addition to their skill set and make sure they are qualified to build the product in a way that we all agree upon and we all think is the right way to go. So it's a little bit more in depth of a process this early. And I'd say the first 10 employees and from what I've heard from other startups and having been involved in some early ones myself, those first 10 employees really shape your culture. So it's really important that they're they're qualified both technically and just somebody that you want to spend time with, too.
Nicole Klemp [00:10:24] Yeah, speaking of culture, so, you know, being in, you know, coming from a couple of other start ups and then, you know, some bigger companies and consulting like KPMG, what did you take away from those pretty different experiences that you- when you say, you know, this is some part of culture that I want to bring into my new company? What did you take away from kind of those two different worlds to bring into your new company?
Michael Otis [00:10:47] That's a great question. So I will frequently speak with younger folks, I'm starting to think of myself as older, so not a good sign, but people younger than me I should say, who are really exploring the, "Do I go to a big company to start my career, even though I'm probably not going to like it? Do I just check the box, get it on my resume? Or do I just go directly to start ups?" And that was the debate that I had, and honestly, I was directly to a big company, and I kind of glazed over it when I mentioned earlier, but I candidly didn't really love the big consultancy experience. It was very regimented, very hierarchical. It didn't really matter how well you did, you wouldn't get promoted before x amount of years because that's what the company does. It's not necessarily merit based, regrettably. So that was difficult for me. But when I went to my first startup and I was interviewing undergrads, I would say, "Look, I don't know if this is where I would start my career. There's so many moving pieces. Part of the startup life is, at least the two with which I was involved before this one, there's a significant amount of turnover, and with the first startup there were many days I came into the office and 15 percent of my coworkers were gone just like that. And at a big established company like KPMG and other consultancies, you're not going to walk in and 15 percent of the employee base is going to be gone one day. That's not going to happen. It's pretty difficult to get let go from one of those places, to be honest. For better or for worse. So there's a little bit more consistency and standardized approach to managing employees and developing employees. And there's training and there's a career path, and it might be three years you're this, next three years you're this. And that might be slow, especially when you're twenty one, twenty two, when you're chomping at the bit to go seize your career. And that's 100 percent how I felt at that time. Probably still do. But the flip side of that is, if you go to a startup, there might not be a defined career path, depending on how early on it is. But if you come in and you perform well, there's probably room for promotions the next three to six to nine months, which is just not something you would ever get going to a big established company that says, "OK, work your ass off for the next three years, then we'll talk about a promotion regardless of how well you're doing."
Chrissy Vasquez [00:13:02] So the start ups, obviously, like you said, you're wearing many hats and doing everything that needs to be done. Talk to us about what a typical day may look like and how you organize your time to be successful in that day. And how do you ensure that you're getting balance in your life? Like, when do you know to turn it off? Do you ever turn it off?
Michael Otis [00:13:21] So to start the call, I referenced my time running my learning center and that I learned a lot of things good and bad. One of the things I learned is that it's really hard to turn it off when you have your own business. I mean you might not be actively working at 9:00 at night, but there are things in the back of your head or things that you're thinking about you need to do the next day and that will never leave you. And I was prepared for that coming into this, thankfully, because I had that small learning center where I was only the other employee, but it was just always on my mind and there was an infinite to do list that I had to just accept I will never finish. I'll knock off some things one day and then things will get added, it is just constantly evolving. So in terms of my day at it varies based on what the business needs are at the time. The role of a CEO evolves over the course of a company's existence. So early on, it was a lot of just product division and working with my CTO in terms of what the product was going to look like. Then it evolved to a little bit more just applying to accelerators, trying to speak to customers as much as possible, trying to just get as much feedback as we could. Over the past six months or so it transitioned to fundraising mode, hiring mode. So today it's really split, I'd say, 60, 40. 60 percent hiring, looking for engineers right now and 40 percent looking for customers to to get feedback from and potentially to sell the product to. So my day is split, probably accordingly. Both of those really require business hour time. So it's it's generally eight, nine a.m. to five, six p.m. is when I'm dedicating time to those things and then more of the admin CEO role type thing, speaking with investors, those types of responsibilities are more after hours. But I am a huge proponent of, maybe I can do a better job myself, but certainly people that work for me trying to take that time away and finding things that are important to you. So one of the perks of this new remote world that we're in is you can kind of set your own schedule and if you want to go to the gym in the middle of the day, and that's a good reprieve, do that. So I disappear for two hours, the middle of the day to go to the gym. And that's a nice detox for me then I can hit the ground running when I get back. And so to your question, I think that's that's really important to find time to unwind and let go. And I've worked with a lot of early stage start up folks who get burnout just going one hundred and eighty percent for two or three years in a row. And then they hit the point where they should be enjoying themselves and they can't because they have nothing to enjoy in their life anymore. So I'm conscious of that. And again, maybe I could do a better job myself, but it's something that I really preach to anybody that has ever worked for me in the past and will continue to do so.
Nicole Klemp [00:15:54] Awesome. So you mentioned Wake Forest in your college days, so you're an Alpha Kappa Psi alumni, correct?
Michael Otis [00:16:03] I sure am. Yeah, the folks I was at Wake with at the time, I was able to convince to make me president of our chapter at the time which, huge mistake on their part, but I was very appreciative.
Nicole Klemp [00:16:14] So how do you think that, you know, especially being president, how did your experience in AKPsi kind of influence your career up to this point?
Michael Otis [00:16:23] So I think this is a lot to do with AKPsi and a lot to do with the smart people that I went to school with, but my AKPsi events and leadership teams and my group projects in school who were oftentimes a lot of people that I knew through AKPsi, those were and are the smartest groups of people that I've ever worked with. Having gone through Y Combinator, working at KPMG, spent time at eBay, I've been fortunate to rub elbows with some pretty intelligent people, and I learned probably more from my time running events in AKPsi, running a chapter than I have in anything else my career. Now that I run my own company, I shouldn't say that. I've learned a hell of a lot in the past two years. But before this really tremendous learning experience and, those of you listening who are going through that right now, seriously, take advantage of it. It's a shame, especially if you go to a large company, you're not going to get a lot of leadership roles, the opportunity to lead people early on in your career. So seize it while you can. I learned so much about management and leadership as a 20 year old and 21 year old that I didn't really have the chance to put into practice for, I don't know, four or five years after that into my career, which is now incredibly valuable, and I'm glad I spent a lot of my early 20s focusing on becoming a better manager of people and learning how to lead meetings and all of that that I really relish now. So seize while you can. I learned a ton and I'm so grateful that I happened to see a flyer walking around campus one day my freshman year and thought, "Oh, that sounds interesting, I'm a business nerd. Let's give this a try."
Chrissy Vasquez [00:17:56] So talking a little bit about the accelerator again, what is some advice that you have for people that are interested in maybe connecting with one? What did you do to prepare with your application? Obviously, you did something right. It's more than just luck. So what were- how did you seek out the information you need to be able to best apply for that?
Michael Otis [00:18:14] So first, I'll say anybody listening, feel free to reach out to me, whether it's on LinkedIn or shoot me an email, it's Michael@Procoto.com. I'm more than happy to help anybody who's, especially applying to Y Combinator because I can speak to that one personally. There's a lot of information available online to any of the major accelerators on what their interview process is like, what their questions are. Y C, Y Combinator has a pretty thorough application, and they're really big on just understanding the fundamental core of your business. So something you spend the entire period of Y Combinator doing is boiling down what your business does to two sentences because their logic is, look, if you can't summarize what your business does in two sentences, no one will be able to understand it. And that's important for both investors and customers, and it's surprisingly difficult to succinctly and clearly summarize what your entire business does in two sentences. So if you have an idea, I would say that's a huge step, whether you're applying to Y Combinator or another accelerator or just in general. Fundamentally understanding what your business does and being able to communicate it succinctly is really, really critical in terms of accelerator applications specifically. I mean, they want to accept companies that have the opportunity to become something big. So think about your market size, think about who your customers are, what are the demographics that you're going after? How are you going to get in touch with them? What are your marketing channels? So I think that's pretty high level what you might be looking for. There will certainly be more specific questions in there. Another thing that is really critical for accelerators because a lot of these companies they're admitting are pre-revenue or early revenue. They're really selecting these companies based on the idea, and two, the starters, basically the founders. So if you are the right fit for this company, be able to explain why. And maybe you have an idea that you're not the right fit for the company and explain why you're the right one to solve it anyway. But early on, whether it's seed investors or accelerators, they're really investing in the people just as much as the idea itself. So make sure you're the right ones to solve the problem that you have identified.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:20:21] Great, thank you. And what was the Y C experience actually like once you were accepted? It sounded like maybe you went to classes or attended seminars or- what was that process like and how long did it last?
Michael Otis [00:20:31] Sure. So we were the second batch that was fully remote, so it was a lot of Zoom calls and it's not classes per se. It's not an education program. It's more the seminar focused approach where they'll have former founders come in and speak. So some of the big companies that have been involved, Airbnb and Reddit and Dropbox, and they have those founders come back and speak to us and they talk about how when they were in our position, they thought, "Oh my God, my company was a mess. We weren't going to make it six months." And it's kind of encouraging to hear somebody who runs a $40 billion business say that, you know, "When I was in your shoes, I had no idea what I was doing, either." So it builds this community of, look, we're all in this together. People who have been very successful come through this program. Here's what they did to make them successful and here's what they try to avoid that would impede their progress. There's a lot of one on one coaching with the leaders within Y Combinator, the partners is what they're called. And then there's a lot of just interaction with your batchmates as well. So a little bit more difficult now that they're remote, but you spend a lot of time getting to know the other founders within your section. The overall batches divide into smaller groups called sections, and within there they try to segment. So we're B2B software, so they segmented us with other B2B software companies so we could bounce ideas off of each other in terms of marketing and sales outbound and just general product development engineering. So it's a collection of very intelligent people who are all working towards similar goals. And they acknowledge, look, most of these companies are not going to be successful. That's the rule of startups. But the goal is to give you every opportunity to become successful and really increase the odds as much as we can.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:22:12] So as a nonprofit fundraiser, I know that's different from a tech startup, but I'm curious what your biggest success was in terms of fundraising thus far and what was your biggest... I wouldn't say let down, but your biggest "no" that you worked on?
Michael Otis [00:22:29] Sure. So gosh, I don't I don't know if there is any one particular "no." So this is a sidebar, but I think it's a relevant metaphor. So I've referenced how I didn't love my experience at KPMG. So while I was there, I went through a bit of a quarter life crisis and I've been a huge film fan my entire life. And I went and took up acting classes and screenwriting and did that on the side professionally for a few years. And the process of fundraising is very similar to being an actor going into an audition where you just had people, just, they're going to smile to you, they're going to tell you, great job and then you're going to walk out of the room and you will never hear from them again.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:23:05] That's a great metaphor.
Michael Otis [00:23:06] Until the company is doing incredibly well, and then they come crawling back and say, "Oh yeah, remember those great conversations we had?"
Chrissy Vasquez [00:23:13] "You lost our email."
Michael Otis [00:23:15] Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it was- thankfully, I was somewhat prepared for that experience of always smiling, always giving the same pitch and doing it enthusiastically and acknowledging that the vast percentage of these people are just not going to be interested. And that's kind of the rule of fundraising. And that's coming out of Y Combinator, where we had, fairly or unfairly, the Y C halo around us, where a lot of investors are automatically interested and want to speak with us. So I would say it's seventy five percent plus of the companies with whom, excuse me, the investors with whom we spoke just are kind of checking a box, talking to every single company in Y Combinator, and there were three hundred and fourteen of them in our batch. So just inherently they're not investing in all of those. Most of them are investing in two to three of those. So you can do the math. It's a significant percentage of glad handing and just having conversations and kind of checking the boxes in both directions. So I don't think there was any one negative. It was just a accumulative hearing no, or just no response. Many, many times. Biggest success, so our lead investor for the pre-seed round is a fund called Tampa Bay Ventures. So I referenced it earlier in the conversation that my two previous startups were in Atlanta. Once the whole world went remote and we got into Y Combinator, my co-founder and I said, "Well, instead of being landlocked Atlanta, it'd be kind of nice to move to the beach." So we moved to St. Petersburg, Florida. Absolutely love it down here, but we didn't know anybody in the startup community. So we found a fund down here that is a collection of local startup folks and people who have done well in the Tampa and St. Pete area, and it was just a perfect marriage of look, they know exactly what we need in terms of the business and the financial side, but there are also going to be inroads into the community here and getting more involved and speaking to younger folks in the St. Pete area. Hiring, recruiting, meeting other investors. So that was a big coup for us to find an investor that really met all of those needs in ways that we honestly couldn't even imagine at the time.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:25:10] Oh, that's awesome, I loved your metaphor because it's exactly what it is, you'll go and people will be really excited about what you're doing and then you never hear from them and you'll send some reminder calls and emails and it's crickets.
Michael Otis [00:25:21] Right. And on every single call, it's, "You have the best idea in the world." They're super friendly. They can't wait to get in touch with you again and then you never hear from them again.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:25:30] Yeah. You mentioned your quarter life crisis. It made me think of a book I read when I had mine. And I'm wondering if The Quarter Life. Crisis is still a book that people read at that time.
Michael Otis [00:25:40] You know, I haven't heard of it. I'm going to look it up while we're talking here.
Nicole Klemp [00:25:42] No, me neither.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:25:42] I'm going to have to look it up because it just- I had forgot I read that, years ago, because I'm older now. But yeah.
Nicole Klemp [00:25:49] Yeah, I have not read that, but I definitely had one. At around twenty five, so.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:25:54] I feel like I'm getting close to a midlife crisis. I don't know how that's possible. Michael, you mentioned you're like, "I feel older now." It's like, I don't feel like I'm getting close-
Michael Otis [00:26:01] It happened so soon. Yeah, it's amazing, you look back and suddenly 18 year old seem like children to you. It's like, "What happened? Why? Why am I so old? And why do I not know any of the lingo anymore? Nobody even uses the word lingo anymore. What happened to me?"
Chrissy Vasquez [00:26:12] I look at Facebook, that ages me right there, and my friend's kids are almost off to college. I'm like, "I was just holding him as a baby a couple days ago. How did that work?" So we're going to ask you our signature question that we ask here on the Business Edge podcast. Tell us about a time when your personal values were challenged. What happened and how did you handle it?
Michael Otis [00:26:34] Hoo! Personal values were challenged.
Nicole Klemp [00:26:38] No pressure.
Michael Otis [00:26:39] Yeah, especially because this is the signature question. And I tend to end interviews asking a difficult question like this, and I hate when people cop out. So I'm going to give you an answer, but I'm buying myself time to think of one here. All right, so I'm going to try to keep it relatively vague here out of respect for previous employers. We'll keep it at that. So a challenge I have with the software industry and fundraising is some businesses take this approach where they're layering in revenue from the vendor side of their business. And then they add in a tech enabled piece and all of a sudden they're a software company, but their revenue is 10x what it would be if they just looked at their software. And in my process of fundraising over the past year or so, I met a lot of investors who have spoken to my previous employers and the founders of those companies. So in terms of trying to maintain positive relationships there, I have navigated around those conversations and try to remain respectful in both directions. So you can probably sense I'm tip toeing a line here and don't reveal too much. But it's just fundamentally a problem and approach to business I don't agree with and I think it's to a certain degree, not subterfuge. That's a really strong word toward the toward the investors. I think they, to a certain extent do know what they're getting into. But it's a shame that a lot of the people with whom I worked at those companies who have now left to do other things, they look back and reflect on their experience and say, "Look, that wasn't even a software company that we were building." And so in terms of my values, it's really- I left because I wanted to build a true software company and be authentic to our employees and giving them pieces of the company so that we can all share in this approach together and genuinely and generally build what is considered a true software company and not something that's masquerading as a software company.
Nicole Klemp [00:28:33] Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:28:36] Thank you for sharing that example. Michael, it's been wonderful to talk to you, and we just really wish you the best of luck as you continue to go forward and we'll follow you and your company and see how you're doing.
Michael Otis [00:28:45] Thanks so much, guys. I really enjoyed it.
Nicole Klemp [00:28:47] Thanks, Michael.
Michael Otis [00:28:48] Thank you, guys.
Finn Lambouris [00:28:52] Thanks for listening to Business Edge. If you have questions, comments or topics suggestions for us email businessedge@akpsi.org.