In a time of rising interest rates and anxiety, how can young people today sort through all the noise to find their first home? In this episode of Business Edge, co-hosts Chrissy and Nicole ask featured guest Cheryl Dunson about what young professionals need to know about the process of home ownership. Listen to her speak about how you can know when you’re financially ready to buy a home, how to find a realtor who’s a good fit for you, and how you can go about finding your true priorities when it comes to a home.
Cheryl Dunson [00:00:00] Always have a buffer. Yes, you can get mortgages with 3% down, but if 3% is all the cash that you have on hand, then I don't think you're ready because you still want to have that "what if" money.
Finn Lambouris [00:00:14] You're listening to Business Edge, the podcast for professionals looking to excel in the workforce. In each episode, our guests take a deep dive into their personal and professional experiences to give you an edge in the marketplace. This podcast is brought to you by Alpha Kappa Psi Professional Business Fraternity.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:29] Welcome back to another episode of Business Edge. I'm Chrissy, and with me today is Nicole. How are you doing?
Nicole Klemp [00:00:35] Chrissy, I'm doing great. How are you today?
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:37] Oh, that's great. I am well, thank you. It's always good to be here with you. And today we are talking to Cheryl Dunson. Cheryl, thank you for joining us today.
Cheryl Dunson [00:00:47] Thanks so much for having me.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:49] We were wondering if you could share with our listeners a little bit about your background, your professional experience, as well as about you personally?
Cheryl Dunson [00:00:56] Certainly. Obviously, I was a part of Alpha Kappa Psi at the University of Georgia. That was back when Title IX first came into place. And I was one of the first women in the chapter and thoroughly enjoyed it, and still keep up with some of my brothers back in Atlanta. I was a marketing major, but my first real career was in data processing. I went to a marketing interview and there was some dead time and I was wandering around and wound up talking to a gentleman who was in data processing. And the next thing I knew I got a call back and they had me take a lot of math tests, which seemed odd, but it was fine. Anyway, I went to work in one of the largest data centers in the southeast, started in data center operations, went to being an instructor and traveling to the data centers in what was Southern Belle and South Central Belle. So Belle South and then ended my career with them as a project manager in data operations. Then I just, you know, I took a sabbatical because I was a single mom and they were offering them and it sounded like a great plan. There was a guaranteed right to return and that seemed like a good opportunity. And did that, helped open a preschool at our church, and started buying rental property and helping friends who would say, "I was looking at this house, but it's so dated, I'm not sure what to do." And this was well before HGTV. And would make suggestions and finally decided that, you know, maybe I was pretty good at that and I should probably get my license and start doing it as a living. So I have done that off and on for over 20 years now.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:02:42] Wow. That's quite a span of different jobs and things that you've been working on. Tell us what that transitions like. How did you know when it was you know, you said you've been doing real estate for 20 years. I know you ran some nonprofits in there. So how did you make some of those transitions back and forth?
Cheryl Dunson [00:02:59] Well, the transition to nonprofit, I went back and got my Master's in liberal studies when my son went off to college. You know, you have some free time for any of those single parents out there once you juggled all of that. And I really wanted to do something that sort of served the common good. And so I was hired into the teacher project in D.C. and went there for a year. It was definitely not my strong suit, but I did like the idea of helping make a change. But I had enjoyed college so much as an adult that I started looking for jobs on college campuses. And just so happens that a college was developing the traditional neighborhood development. And I thought, well, this would be great. I could work at a college and do what I'm good at. And so they hired me there. And that's really been sort of my focus is creating community, whether it was in nonprofit or whether it's in the for profit segment.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:04:03] Oh, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing.
Nicole Klemp [00:04:05] Yeah. So let's jump back a little bit. Tell us a little bit about, you know, what it was like joining AKPsi as a woman after Title IX, and what challenges did you see and what opportunities did you see kind of open up for you, you know, as you became a brother?
Cheryl Dunson [00:04:23] Sure. And I will say I was not trying to break any glass ceilings at the time. I was in an accounting class, which was not my strong suit. And there was a very nice gentleman sitting next to me. And I got a grade back that I had never seen before, and he could tell I was so shocked. He said, "Would you like to come study? I live in a fraternity house and, you know, we keep all these old tests. And so if you'd like to study, I'll help you with it." Well, my grades improved considerably. He wound up being my big brother. And anyway, it was really just a wonderful experience. I had great friends. I think it was an adjustment because there were, of course, brothers who had been used to it being truly a fraternity. We did have a house. I lived there my senior year. It was great fun. It was great fun and wonderful friends.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:05:20] So, you know, I think a lot of our listeners are probably in this space. You've got all this real estate expertise. And so I think we want to spend some time today really talking about that, giving some tips and helping some of our listeners determine, am I ready for home ownership? If I am, what does that look like? I mean, it can be so overwhelming. There's so many new terms that you don't know. It's a big financial commitment, obviously. How do you make sure you're ready financially? So we're going to ask you a couple of questions about that. So hopefully we can help our listeners feel comfortable and confident if they think that homeownership might be for them. So let's start with kind of a basic question. Obviously, you don't have a crystal ball, so you can't see the future. The housing market has been a wild ride the last couple of years. What do you see happening over the next 18 to 24 months?
Cheryl Dunson [00:06:11] Well, again, I would love to have that crystal ball, but I think besides the negative things that you hear about interest rates going up and such. My first condo, the interest rate was 16%. So single digits are still, in my mind, an excellent time to have a home, because while some people may say, well, it might be more expensive to rent, when interest rates go up, rental rates go up as well. So it's, you know, you may be safe for a year or however long that lease happens to be, but things are going to go up. I do always suggest that you not be strapped. I mean, first of all, you should always talk to a lender to find out what you're qualified for. Because once you look at an $800,000 house and then you find out you can afford a $500,000 house or a 400 and a 200, you're going to have that $800,000 house in your mind and nothing else is going to suit you. So I'm a big proponent of only looking at what comfortably fits in your price point. And I also say don't push it to the max. I mean, if you feel comfortable buying a $200,000 house, then maybe you want to look at $175,000 house so that you're not stretched and you don't have to worry if, you know, something happens to the roof or you have to do a major repair that it's not going to put you in trouble.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:07:43] That's great advice. I'm glad you said something about interest rates because clearly they are going up. And it brought me back when you talked about your interest rate. It took me back to when I bought my first house at 23 and I think my interest rate was 7% because that was the going rate. So we have been extremely spoiled by these low interest rates over the last couple of years. I'm glad you said something. So right now it seems like in most cities it's definitely on the seller's side, right? They can be picky about what offers they can, you know--I hear people doing no inspections, just crazy things to me. But, so do you think that seller market is going to continue for the next 18 to 24 months?
Cheryl Dunson [00:08:25] I don't know if the seller's market will continue, having done this for a long time, a balanced market is really, it's better for everyone because you get unrealistic expectations. And yes, there are certainly places where people are foregoing inspections and I just think that's a terrible idea, particularly if it's your first home, because you have no idea what might be an issue that no one is hiding from you, they just didn't know it existed, right? Do I think things are still going well? I actually do. I'm closing on a house this summer that I'm buying and I'm in this industry. But again, to me, you know, a five and a half or 6% mortgage, that's a good price as long as it's affordable for you. I think that's really the issue.
Nicole Klemp [00:09:15] Yeah, that's great.
Nicole Klemp [00:09:16] You've been listening to Business Edge, brought to you by Alpha Kappa Psi Professional Business Fraternity and sponsored by Synergos Association Management Company. Now let's get back to the conversation.
Nicole Klemp [00:09:31] So what about, thinking again about the younger professionals, or maybe someone just fresh out of college starting their first real job or maybe a little bit further into their career, if someone's thinking, maybe it's time for me to buy my first house, what should that look like for them? Is there a certain, you know, kind of stage they should be at financially or what are some kind of boxes you think someone should be able to check before you think they're really ready to invest in a home?
Cheryl Dunson [00:09:57] Sure. I think you should always have a buffer. Yes, you can get mortgages with 3% down. But if 3% is all the cash that you have on hand, then I don't think you're ready because you still want to have that "what if" money. I do believe you should talk to a lender. A lot of times people are afraid to do that. They think it's going to commit them to something. But it really helps you understand what you can comfortably afford. I know that there are so many tools out there now, so buyers have much more information than they did 20 years ago. But I do still believe that having a realtor that you respect and that knows the area is going to be significant for you because they're going to ask you some questions that will help you think about, is this the right home for me?
Chrissy Vasquez [00:10:47] So on that, how do you find a realtor? What's the best way to go about finding a realtor?
Cheryl Dunson [00:10:52] Well, I think just like the way you find a restaurant you like, you talk to your friends, and you find someone that they feel took good care of them and was advocating on their behalf. And that is really a great way to get one. Certainly you can go online and you can look at reviews, but, you know, just because somebody says they're the number one person, does that mean they have enough time to spend with you? Do you maybe need the person who's number three so that they can actually take time out for you?
Chrissy Vasquez [00:11:23] Do you recommend interviewing realtors? Is that a thing to be able to meet with a couple people to see who you click with?
Cheryl Dunson [00:11:29] I have certainly been interviewed a few times in my career. It's fine. I mean, I don't have an objection to it, particularly if you don't have someone who is referring you to a realtor, then that might be a good idea. Normally we have, you know, not all personalities go together and sometimes you do wind up having a client slash realtor and you go, "You know, my partner here. She goes to the same church as you, she's your age, whatever. You know, I think you would probably really enjoy working with her." Because we really, as realtors, we really do want to serve the client. And if that means having someone else help in the transaction, then that's the right decision.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:12:15] Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And so what if one of our listeners gets a realtor, they start down the process, and then it's like, "Oh, this isn't a fit." How do you recommend that you make that transition from your realtor in a professional way?
Cheryl Dunson [00:12:29] Yes, that will be a little awkward. And there are different laws in every state. Many states do have a buyer-agency agreement. I've got licenses active and expired in three states. So they're different in different states. If you have signed a contract basically that that person is representing you, then you will need to terminate that contract before you start working with someone else. If you like the person, but it's just not working for you, then you may want to say, "Do you have somebody in your office that maybe would be a better fit? You know, we kind of both know that this isn't working so well," and that way, the client gets a better experience and the realtor who has put in the time can refer that person to someone else who has a different personality, because we all do have different personalities.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:13:20] That's great advice.
Nicole Klemp [00:13:21] Yeah. Can you walk us through a little bit or for someone who's maybe never gone through this process or doesn't know what to expect, just a kind of overview of what is the process like for someone when they need a realtor to work with, they start touring homes and then maybe they find their dream home. For you and your clients, what does that process kind of look like, just in a nutshell?
Cheryl Dunson [00:13:39] Okay. While the traditional setting you probably have in your mind is maybe a great big Coldwell Banker office and there are 100 agents in it, in the last ten years, I have worked pretty much in traditional neighborhood developments, so I am working with the builders and the buyers. So that's a little different than sitting in the back seat of the car and driving all around. But we can do both of those.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:14:02] Yeah, that'd be great.
Cheryl Dunson [00:14:03] Yeah, we're looking at resale properties. You want to have the conversation first. Most realtors are going to actually require that you talk to a lender before you go looking, because, again, it will break your heart if you look at something and then realize it's not in your budget. And it's also, you know, it's protecting their time because there's no reason to do that. So make sure you're qualified. And then there's a lot of discussion about, "How do you live?" You know, what is it that you're looking for in a home? And some people think that means, "Oh, I want three bedrooms and, you know, 2000 square feet," or whatever. But it really has a lot more to do with, "Do I need a huge backyard for my dog or do I want a place that has a park nearby for the kids?" Or, you know, there are a lot of things besides just that square footage on a lot that help you determine what you want. Again, if you're doing the resale, you'll do the negotiating for the contract, and then there is an inspection period. Again, I certainly recommend having an inspection even if it's not, you know, even if it's in the market where they're not going to do any repairs, you still want to know before you buy it. Then there's another mini negotiation over any items that came up on the inspection report. And then you're working with either a closing attorney or a title company to get that closing done. There may be another agent involved, or you may be the realtor for both sides. Again, different states, different laws, but they will help you through the process. They'll make sure that you're in contact with that title company or closing attorney. And then, you know, it's get the utilities moved over, have the moving truck lined up and welcome to your new home. So that's a resale. For new construction, they're coming to us. So websites with a lot of information. Traditional neighborhood developments are frequently higher price per square foot than other things nearby because they are beautiful and have parks and you can't drive through and want to go, "Oh, this was built in 1990. Or, this was built in 2000," because they're very classic. So they come to us. Huge price range because it's like a small town. So we have everything from a thousand square feet, single family homes to 5000 square foot homes. So again, you want to talk to the client, see what they're looking for, how they live, what matters to them, hook them up with a builder that you think again, just like the realtor is going to be one that suits them because that's a long time they're going to be spending together, and then help them through the process. All the builders either have their own designers or people who they have a working relationship with that they can help the folks design their home. Again, you go through the same title company attorney at the end. They can certainly have inspections on new construction as well. Again, not because anybody is intentionally doing something, but you never know if things would get missed. But it really is, it's a treat when you find the right product for a person and know that it's going to make a huge difference in their lives.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:17:22] Oh, I'm sure that's very rewarding. I never really thought about it that way, but yeah, absolutely. So let's, you know, I'm out looking for a house for the first time and I've told my realtor, these are some things that are priorities to me. I know that I'm not going to be able to get everything in one house. So how do you recommend for your clients, how do they prioritize what's important to them and what are the must have non-negotiables and what are the nice to have? You know, how do you kind of walk your clients through that process?
Cheryl Dunson [00:17:53] Okay. And that is really a wonderful question because amazingly, you'll have a married couple come in, sometimes and I'll say, "Okay, have you talked about what you want?" And then you ask a question like, "Does it matter to you if it's brick or hardie board?" And they give you two different answers. And, you know, they really have not had a discussion. They've only decided, "Let's go buy a house." So it is important to get that and it's important for them to know what is non-negotiable. I mean, when we were talking about, "Do I need a three bedroom or a four bedroom," do you really need a four bedroom or do you need a three bedroom and an office? So let's determine what those true needs are and what the wants are. And then I think it's, you know, you're not going to find a perfect house. I don't think you'll ever find a realtor who will tell you this is perfect because there are some give and takes. But I think, trying to show them the reality of what they're asking for and what their budget is. Sometimes those are not in sync. And it's good to show them, "All right, this is what you say you want. And for us to keep that in your price range, it's going to be a 40 year old home. How do you feel about doing a renovation?" And then you learn things like, "Oh, I don't own a hammer." "Okay, well then this is probably not a good idea. Maybe we should look at what you really need." And it may be that they need a home that's no older than five years or ten years and you adjust those needs and wants.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:19:25] That's a really great point. When I was looking for my first house, I wanted to live in Indianapolis when I was 23, so I wanted to live closer to where everybody hung out around my age, but I couldn't afford anything there, or it needed renovation, which I did not have the time nor the money to do. So ended up with a house that I could afford that was move-in ready in the suburbs as a 23 year old. And now that I'm 42 and live in that booming suburb that I still live in, you know, but it's, "What can I afford, and where can I go, and what makes sense for me," And having to trade off that, yeah, I didn't want to live in the money pit at 23 years old, so.
[00:20:02] No. No, good decision.
Nicole Klemp [00:20:05] Switching gears a little bit. So, thinking about some of the listeners that might be, maybe a young professional who is interested in a career in real estate or someone who's maybe more seasoned in their career, but thinking about making a change into real estate, what advice would you give them and what kinds of things do they need to do, or are there any certifications they need to have, things like that?
Cheryl Dunson [00:20:25] So I would say if they are already an established part of a community, then that's a great way to start in real estate because you already have people that you can reach out to to say, "This is what I'm doing now and please share it with your friends." And I mean, there is a lot of marketing of yourself that goes into being an independent contractor realtor. That's the other thing is that most realtors, again, in that traditional, you drive by Coldwell Banker Remax, whatever, they're independent contractors. Where I work right now, I'm actually an employee. So you have to think about those benefits, and, you know, what's most important. I was an independent contractor for years because part of the reason that I wanted to do this was I was good at it when I worked with my friends, and I never missed a concert. I never missed a tennis match. I could chaperone field trips. You might still be putting in an 80 hour week, but you could decide what those 80 hours were. So I think for somebody who needs flexibility, that's a really great way to do it. Again, if you need to have those corporate benefits, then you might want to look at new home sales. Again, mine is a particular niche of that, it's the traditional neighborhood development. But there are different types of real estate out there. And also there's commercial. Most residential realtors don't sell commercial and most commercial don't do residential. You know, if you're selling residential, you do things like carry toilet paper and tissues in your car because you never know what's going to happen. And if you're a commercial agent, I don't think they have to do that very often.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:22:10] If someone is looking to get into real estate, what are some characteristics that you think make a good real estate agent?
Cheryl Dunson [00:22:16] I think you need to care about your clients. If you're truly going into it because you've seen someone on TV and they're making X amount of money, that's going to work great for you for a few years and then you are going to burn out. So you really do need to care. And when I say that, you know, you can sit at a closing table sometimes and people are teary eyed because the seller is telling about how they raised their children and they're selling it to a young family with young children. And anyway, it's just a treat to see them sharing those memories and futures with each other. But I do think they need to understand that once you take that real estate test and pass it, you still don't have a clue how to sell real estate. You just know what the law is. So I think you should find someone who's experienced. And the first six months I did it, I gave half of all of my commissions to the person who was my mentor. But I had no problem asking a question every day because she knew she was helping make me successful. And we're actually still great friends after all this time. So it was a double bonus for me.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:23:29] I think that's a great reminder because I will say I see some friends on Instagram and they're killing it in real estate, but you don't think about all the money that they put into it, to their education and to really understanding all the laws and regulations and things of that sort. It just seems like, "Oh, you go show this house and then you collect your paycheck again and move on." So it's a good reminder. And so I'm curious where you recommend if people want to learn not only about maybe real estate as a career, but also maybe about purchasing what are some resources, either online or publications that you recommend for people?
Cheryl Dunson [00:24:05] Sure, you can go to the National Association of Realtors and it has information about becoming a realtor because, again, as I said, it's different in every state. So you'll want to go to the real estate commission for your particular state for real details. But the National Association of Realtors has articles on it that are for buyers and for people who are looking into going into real estate. Because it is a money investment up front. By the third year, a lot of people have dropped out of it because it is not HGTV. It's a lot of work and, you know, helping people discover what it is they really want, what their house is actually worth. So there's a lot of negotiation and it's the most important thing that's going on in someone's life when they're buying or selling a home. And so there's a lot of anxiety that you need to help with.
Nicole Klemp [00:24:57] Yeah, that's great advice. And along those same lines, kind of, you know, especially someone getting started and trying to make a name for themselves and market themselves. I think we'd love to hear your advice, you know, and not just for someone in real estate, but any kind of independent contractor or someone trying to promote their services. What are some kind of personal branding tips that you have to kind of help, you know, grow your network and get your name out?
Cheryl Dunson [00:25:22] Sure. Sphere of influence, of course, is how we refer to it. If I were someone moving to a new community and I didn't know anyone, I would absolutely do some research and find someone who had an existing team and would look at joining that team. Because if you don't know anyone, it is going to be a lot of money up front and you just don't have a sphere of influence in that area. However, if you know people, then you're going to spend a lot of time... I think you have some nonprofit background. You probably heard that, three by three. So, three phone calls, three emails, and three notes. It's the same if you're promoting yourself, you've got to be able to pick up the phone. You've got to be able to write a note. You have to push yourself to get out there and let people know that that's what you're doing.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:26:13] So I have a quick question for you that's related to real estate. So there was a trend for a long time, a long time being relative, a couple of years, I guess, where people would write a letter to the homeowner about what the house meant to them or why they were looking at that house. And so then sometimes the sellers would read it and feel inspired to go with that person's bid. I've heard recently that that's actually discouraged. Curious to hear your experience with it. I know you said you're in builders and that's not really a thing, but back when you were working out of an office, just curious to hear a little bit about that.
Cheryl Dunson [00:26:46] Sure. And I will say, as a person who has a mushy center, you would think that I would like those, but I actually do not like those, because you--part of the reason that you don't generally have buyers and sellers together when they're looking at a home is, again, personalities sometimes don't mesh. And I have on more than one occasion had to remind a buyer that the seller is not coming as part of the package. It doesn't matter, you know, how you feel about them. Within 30 days, they are no longer a part of your life. So I think when you send one of those letters that is trying to convince the seller, you don't know the seller's background, so you don't know if there's something in that letter that would be offensive to them.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:27:36] That's a great point.
Cheryl Dunson [00:27:37] So it is not something that I particularly like.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:27:42] That's a great perspective.
Nicole Klemp [00:27:44] Yeah, that is a good point. All right, Cheryl, so we have to ask our signature question that we ask all of our guests on the Business Edge podcast. So tell us about a time when your personal values were challenged and how did you handle that situation?
Cheryl Dunson [00:27:59] Okay. Well, I will say it's not real estate. As you saw it, I did go to Washington, D.C. as a teaching fellow, and I love doing it. I had a second grade class, they're all title one schools that you're in. But there are certainly challenges, which is why they have the teacher project there. And the suggestions for how to manage those students were not what I would have wanted my son to have experienced as a second grader. And I just could not convince myself that that was the way that the majority of students in that classroom needed to experience learning. So I did decide that there were things I was really good at, and that was not one of them. And so I went back to real estate.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:28:51] That's a great example.
Nicole Klemp [00:28:52] Yeah, yeah, it really is. Especially when it comes to kids. You know, that's one sticking point.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:28:58] Yeah. And I definitely think that's something that almost everybody I know has faced in their career at one point or another is, "Can I stay here based on my values and the organization's values and do we align?" Well, it has been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you for letting us pick your brain about everything real estate. I think it be really helpful for our listeners and it was good reminiscing. I know Nicole and I have both been homeowners for a long time so nice to reminisce those days when we first bought.
Nicole Klemp [00:29:26] Yeah, just hearing your career story and how, you know, you've become such a success after breaking that glass ceiling at your chapter.
Cheryl Dunson [00:29:38] Well, it was a pleasure. And thank you so much for having me.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:29:41] Thank you so much.
Finn Lambouris [00:29:46] Thanks for listening to Business Edge. If you have questions, comments, or topic suggestions for us, email businessedge@akpsi.org.