How does company culture impact business performance? In this episode of Business Edge, special guest Debbie Barrett suggests that a lot of it boils down to managers and the support and training that they’re given. She also speaks to the different career paths existing within the expansive HR field, the concept of “coaching out” (and why it may not really be a bad thing!), and her most rewarding experiences within HR.
Debbie Barrett [00:00:00] Sometimes you're going to coach someone out and that's okay. It's okay because they can be champions for you outside of the organization. And so coaching someone out of the organization seems like an awful thing, but it's actually really healthy.
Finn Lambouris [00:00:14] You're listening to Business Edge, the podcast for professionals looking to excel in the workforce. In each episode, our guests take a deep dive into their personal and professional experiences to give you an edge in the marketplace. This podcast is brought to you by the Commonwealth Leadership Alliance.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:29] Good Afternoon. Thank you for joining us on the Business Edge. We are live here in Miami at the 61st Alpha Kappa Psi Convention. With me is Nicole Klemp. How is your day, Nicole?
Nicole Klemp [00:00:38] Oh, we are having so much fun at Convention today.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:41] Never mind it's hot and humid outside. It's nice and cool in here with all the brothers. Today, we have Debbie Barrett with us and we're excited to have you join us. Nicole is going to share a little bit about her background.
Nicole Klemp [00:00:51] Yeah. So Debbie is the Vice President of Work Life and Culture at ITHAKA and an alum of the Montclair State University's Iota Rho chapter of Alpha Kappa Psi. She's a strategic and results oriented human resources professional with over 20 years of experience in all areas of H.R. management. Debbie is a creative problem solver and proven leader with a record of improving efficiency, reducing costs and enhancing business performance in a fast paced, high growth culture. As a trusted advisor, she creates strong, effective and collaborative relationships, inspiring confidence at all levels. Debbie, we are so happy to have you with us today.
Debbie Barrett [00:01:25] It is great to be here. Thank you.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:01:27] Thanks for joining us. So as we get started, how have you seen the desire for work life balance evolve over the last few years?
Debbie Barrett [00:01:34] Oh, it's been an enormous change. The pandemic has taught us a lot about how we can be effective when we're not necessarily in the office. And obviously that depends on the job. But a lot of the jobs that we have at my organization can do their job even more effectively at home because they don't have to worry about things that are going on at home that they can't manage appropriately when they're not there. And so people have come to expect that now and they're demanding it. They're demanding it, whether it's with the organization that they're working for and they're demanding it on interviews with the next organization that they're considering joining as well.
Nicole Klemp [00:02:12] That's a great point. I think people are, you know, they're looking based on work life balance now. What company is going to give me the best culture?
Debbie Barrett [00:02:19] Absolutely.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:02:20] Yeah, and work-life balance means something different to everybody, too. I've noticed it's not one size fits all.
Debbie Barrett [00:02:26] Absolutely. There's a huge difference in what it means for parents, for caregivers, even for people who are caring for their parents. And I'm one of those people. So I feel that very deeply when people are looking for that kind of balance in their lives. But it's also about that morning commute. I live in New Jersey and commute into New York. And so I lose a lot of time, you know, on the train or on the ferry. And so that's very meaningful for people to get that time back and to be able to make that time more impactful, whether it's for work or whether it's for their individual home needs.
Nicole Klemp [00:03:00] Yeah. So speaking of culture and its influence, how about how does culture impact business performance? I think that's something a lot of business leaders care about, obviously. And from your role, how do you see that impacting the businesses performance?
Debbie Barrett [00:03:15] So I think a lot of it boils down to the managers, how good they are at managing. And often we promote people into management roles because they're doing really well at whatever it is that they do, whether that's finance or marketing or work, life and culture. We don't necessarily give them the tools to be a great manager when they get into that new job, and so they don't know how to do that really well. And so from a cultural standpoint, how people are managed makes a big difference in how they perform, right? So if you empower people, if you enable them to do what they're good at and do it well, then the performance of the organization is going to go up simply because you have enabled people to shine in what they're successful at, what really sings to them in their hearts.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:04:05] You brought up a good point about giving people the right tools when they move roles, and I think I've seen it in the fraternity with volunteer roles, and I've also seen it in the workplace where you're really great at your role right now, and that doesn't always translate that you're going to be great at another role. And part of it is the tools, but part of it is sometimes it's just not the right fit. Being in. H.R., how do you help identify when somebody is going to be able to make that transition to the next position well?
Debbie Barrett [00:04:31] You know, it sounds trite, but we are looking for those soft skills. We're looking for the conversations that they're able to have. We have different conversations and opportunities for feedback in our organization. And so we're looking at not just how they're performing in their current role, but how they are embodying our values. And our values really speak to how well you're going to be in whatever role that you are in. And so, you know, for example, giving feedback is one of those things. We expect that at every level. But if you get the skills of doing it well, even when you're an individual contributor, you're going to be that much better at it when you get to be a manager. So giving people the opportunity to practice some of those skills that makes them successful at higher levels in their careers really enables them to be able to step into those new jobs and be prepared for them.
Nicole Klemp [00:05:26] Yeah. On that note, how do you feel, I guess from both the workplace side, how do you help people develop those skills? And then as an AKPsi brother, how does your experience in the fraternity help shape tomorrow's business leaders in that way?
Debbie Barrett [00:05:39] Yeah. So I'll tell you, I am an introvert. I'm very shy by nature. I'm what they call the social introvert. So I like being around people, but it drains me. And my pledge process, my involvement in AKPsi and everything that that represented in my college days actually made me a lot more confident. It made me more confident when I was going through my interview process, and it made me more confident when I'm actually doing my job as well. And so it really did help to prepare me. It helped me to understand kind of what speaking points I needed to have, how I could speak about myself in such a way that I come across as knowing my stuff, but simultaneously not coming across as being conceited or arrogant. And that's a skill. People don't necessarily know how to do that in terms of what we do at ITHAKA, so we have a learning path for managers. Everyone goes through training every year. We have a path for individual contributors. We have a path for managers, and we have a path for executives that aligns with the path for managers, but is just at a higher level. When we see someone is going into a management role or we're grooming them for a management role, we start thinking about what they need in order to get there. So we have individual coaching sessions. We have a director of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion who will talk to people about crucial conversations and crucial accountability and those types of things just to enable them to have those difficult conversations. Because that's really one of the key skill sets that people need to have in order to be successful. We also have everyone who gets promoted or everyone who joins the company as a new manager go through training on what that means. Like, what does that mean in terms of the responsibilities that they have and how we in work, life, and culture are there to help them throughout their journey. Because it's also important for people to feel like they have a place to go when they have questions, and sometimes folks are embarrassed to go to their new manager. So having us as a resource is important to them.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:07:47] Great, great points. I'm curious, you know, a lot of our listeners are young professional students. What are some decision points to decide is H.R. the right path for me? You know, you have to be comfortable with difficult conversations and ambiguous situations. So just curious to hear a little bit about how people can go about deciding that and maybe some tips to get into the H.R. profession.
Debbie Barrett [00:08:09] Absolutely. So I kind of fell into H.R. from the side. It wasn't what I was originally doing. I was living a life in retail, so I spent 12 years in retail. I was an assistant store manager and then an executive assistant store manager, and I ended up helping to train our district on a particular new software that we had come out with. And training is what got me into H.R.. And so someone said, "Hey, if you love that, then this might be a career path for you." But H.R. is interesting because there's so many different career paths within H.R., so training is just one. Benefits and compensation is another one, and that's very numbers oriented. You need to be very good at analytics and you need to like analytics in order to be able to do that job well. There's the business partner role and that's really having the conversations, being able to serve as intermediary between employees and managers and to give them both coaching simultaneously, which is difficult sometimes, but is important for everyone to be able to get that. There's diversity, equity and inclusion, which is a big part of where H.R. is going these days in particular, but has been big for a while in the organizations who cared about it for years. There's just so many different avenues. In terms of identifying whether this is the right career choice for you, talk to someone who is doing it. The one great thing about AKPsi is the networking, right? There's a lot of alumni who are out there who are doing the job that you're thinking about doing. So if you have the opportunity to connect with those people and just have a brief conversation, whether it's, you know, finding someone who knows that person that you're interested in talking to, getting introduced via LinkedIn or email and just setting up a coffee chat, right? So that you can, you know, pick their brain a little bit. Most people who are in their careers love to be able to give back to people who are growing. And it's not work for us. It feels really good for us. And so don't feel like you're taking a toll on someone. It's really a reciprocal relationship that is beneficial on both sides.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:10:25] That's great advice. I'm curious what's been your most rewarding experience in H.R.? Is there something that you can pinpoint?
Debbie Barrett [00:10:32] It's growing people. It's finding those individuals who really want to grow. And so for me, there's a difference between the person that joins an organization and says, "I want the job above mine and then I want the job above that." And the person who comes in and says, "what's the difference in the skill set that I have and the skill set that's in the job above me? What gaps do I need to fill in order to learn and to grow and to really be able to do that next job successfully?" Those are the people that I want to work with and those are the people that it's just heartwarming to watch them grow and develop, and particularly when I'm the person who's, you know, theoretically signing the paperwork that's putting them in that next level. It just feels great. And it's nothing that I'm doing. It's all work that they're doing, that they're putting in, that they're committing to themselves to be able to grow and develop, and that's just really rewarding just to be a part of that.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:11:31] I loved watching you--You can't see this when you're listening, but just watching Debbie light up when she talked about that. Just this glow. I love it. And, you know, when I was managing people, my favorite... It was a love hate because the people that don't want to grow, you know, they're just really looking for that next level up. I didn't enjoy managing them. But the people that were open to coaching and let's talk about where you want to go and how we can get you the experience in the company to get the skills you want, even if it's not so the next position here, it's the next position somewhere else. That was definitely rewarding. So thank you for sharing that.
Debbie Barrett [00:12:03] Absolutely. And that's also a big thing for managers to be aware of. Sometimes you're going to coach someone out, and that's okay. And it's okay because they can be champions for you outside of the organization. We've had many employees who have brought us new employees, even when they've gone on to their next part of their career journey. And so coaching someone out of the organization seems like an awful thing, but it's actually really healthy.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:12:30] I think it's better to coach somebody out of the organization and say, "Where can we find a better fit for you" than to pretend that it's a fit and just let them kind of flounder.
Debbie Barrett [00:12:40] There are also opportunities to coach someone to do things outside of the organization while they're still in the organization. Volunteering is a key part of that, right? So there are all sorts of professional organizations that people can join and they can hold leadership roles in those organizations, even if we don't necessarily have the next role available for them with our company. And that's an opportunity for them to grow just in a slightly different pathway.
Nicole Klemp [00:13:06] Yeah. Then they'll be better prepared when their opportunity comes along for sure.
Debbie Barrett [00:13:10] Exactly.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:13:13] You've been listening to Business Edge, brought to you by Alpha Kappa Psi Professional Business Fraternity and sponsored by Synergos Association Management Company. Now let's get back to the conversation.
Nicole Klemp [00:13:26] Thinking about, you know, today's talent market. It's so competitive for companies to get, you know, top talent and, what tips would you give for business leaders who are looking to kind of create a culture that people are really drawn to that people want to go work at? How can they start focusing more on people and culture to really start attracting those individuals that they're looking for?
Debbie Barrett [00:13:47] So one of the keys these days in particular is flexibility. So we talked about, you know, working remotely, but it's also hours. It's, you know, someone is better suited to work 8 to 4 than 9 to 5, or 7 to 3, or 10 to 6. And just being flexible around what works for them is key. Also, recognition. So particularly when we're working remotely and you don't have someone watching what you're doing, it's important that people still feel like their work is being seen and that you understand the work that they put in, even if you're not necessarily standing over them, watching them do it, right? You're seeing the results and you know what they needed to put into it in order for those results to come out. Showing that to them. And there's different ways of doing it. I mean, we used to talk about giving people cards, right? And cards are still good and they do those online now. So you can do those even in remote environments. There are also all sorts of reward programs that companies have, you know, through systems and tools. But even just thanking people at the beginning of a team meeting and thinking about individual needs, right? Because some person may want to be recognized publicly. Another person, that would be like the worst possible thing for them, and just telling them privately is what works best for them. So I'd say having conversations with your people so that you know what is going to be motivating for them, what's going to incentivize them, what's going to feel good for them, and what's going to feel bad for them so that you can avoid doing those things. It's really getting to know your people beyond the job that they're doing, but as individual human beings. That's what people want.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:15:37] I love how thoughtful you are, Debbie.
Debbie Barrett [00:15:39] Thank you!
Chrissy Vasquez [00:15:39] I really do. As we wrap up here today, Nicole's going to ask our signature question to you.
Nicole Klemp [00:15:44] Yes. So we ask all of our guests our signature question. So, Debbie, tell us about a time when your personal values were challenged. What happened and how did you handle it?
Debbie Barrett [00:15:54] So this was years ago in my career. It was during an economic downturn, and I was working for an organization that was hearing about other organizations doing unpaid internships. And leaders thought that that was a great idea and we could get people to work. And, you know, that would be great. And every ounce of my body was saying, no, absolutely not. It's just not right. And beyond that, it's not good for the organization's employment brand. People are going to talk about us, like, it's just not a good thing to do. And beyond that, there are legal implications as well, right? But there are ways of working the legal implications. And I fought. And I feel like looking back, I probably could have fought a little bit more thoughtfully than I did, right? Hindsight is 2020 and I was just like, "this is wrong. We can't do this. It's not the right thing to do." And there is a way to really think about the impact that it has on the individual interning, on the manager, on the organization. And I wasn't focused on those things enough. And, you know, I lost the battle. You know, we ended up having unpaid interns, but we ended up having them for a very short period of time because they didn't work. In order to make that relationship a legal relationship, you really have to be very careful about what those interns can and cannot do. And when managers realized it, managers were coming back to us and saying, "forget this, we want to pay you again." And, you know, every time that happened, I was like, "yes!" Because that's ultimately where I wanted it to go. And to me, it's not just paying interns, but it's paying them more than the minimum because they're bringing the organization more than the minimum. And, you know, I think we need to think about internships in a way of the value that they provide that's beyond the simplicity of the job they're doing. And so I lost that battle, but I feel like I won the war in the long run. Since then, I have never again worked for an organization that had unpaid interns. It's part of my side of the interview process and part of how I make decisions about the ethical standards of an organization that I'm thinking about joining.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:18:22] Yeah, that's an awesome point.
Nicole Klemp [00:18:23] Yeah. I mean, that gives you a great insight into who you're working for. That's great.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:18:27] Yeah. And I love the message that came out of that, of when I'm presenting something trying to change minds. What is the messaging and what is the important thing I need to focus on versus what maybe my emotions are feeling. Like what a powerful lesson.
Debbie Barrett [00:18:42] Yeah. Yeah. It was a good learning opportunity for me, definitely.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:18:45] Well, Debbie, it has been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for also serving on our Board of Directors. We appreciate the assets and the knowledge you bring to our organization that way as well.
Debbie Barrett [00:18:55] Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Nicole Klemp [00:18:57] Thank you so much, Debbie. Enjoy the rest of Convention.
Debbie Barrett [00:18:59] Thank you. You too!
Chrissy Vasquez [00:19:00] Thank you.
Finn Lambouris [00:19:04] Thanks for listening to Business Edge. If you have questions, comments or topic suggestions for us, email businessedge@akpsi.org.