Nicole Klemp [00:00:00] If you're looking to transition, maybe dip your toe in rather than kind of diving headfirst. I feel like I've seen people who have made drastic changes and they just jumped right in and then realized kind of the grass wasn't greener on the other side.
Finn Lambouris [00:00:13] You're listening to Business Edge, the podcast for professionals looking to excel in the workforce. In each episode, our guests take a deep dive into their personal and professional experiences to give you an edge in the marketplace. This podcast is brought to you by Alpha Kappa Psi professional business fraternity.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:29] Welcome back! Today, we'll be talking about career transitions. I have Nicole Klemp here with me, and we are both going to talk today about our journey in and out of consulting, in and out of the for-profit world and nonprofit world. And just some of our lessons learned in those traditions. Thanks for joining us, Nicole.
Nicole Klemp [00:00:45] Good to be back.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:00:47] Can you share with us a little bit? We spoke in the last episode with Steve about career transitions, but we're going to go a little deeper into some of the specifics. So can you share with the listeners a little bit about your career journey?
Nicole Klemp [00:00:58] Yeah, so I lightly brushed on this when we we spoke with Steve in the last episode, but I've been in marketing basically my whole career. Studied marketing at Indiana State and then kind of to go even further back, the reason I chose marketing as as my major in college was because I loved writing and I was going to go into journalism and worked at the school newspaper and really didn't like it and decided that, yeah, I'll do business because that's safe. And then marketing is kind of the, you know, most creative of the business field. So that's why I chose marketing. But so I've always been a writer. I've always been kind of on the communication side then, which became content marketing later kind of was invented during my career. So now I'm primarily content marketing. So for about the last decade, so about 10 years or so, I've been in a role, you know, a kind of a content role. And majority of that I've been in the software tech industry. So kind of into 2020 during the pandemic. And, you know, we all were being a little introspective on things I started to feel like maybe I wasn't that excited about software anymore and kind of lost my passion for the tech industry. And it maybe it's just, you know, doing it for several years, I wanted to try something new, but what I decided eventually was that it was more about getting back into the, you know, kind of the nitty gritty work of writing and editing. And I started doing a little bit of freelance on the side, you know, outside of my full time job as a content director at a software company. And I was finding that I was enjoying my side gig a little bit more than my full time work, so eventually found that there was enough, you know, work out there that people needed writers and editors and eventually decided to quit my full time job and go into a full time freelance. So I've been doing that now just over about six months, and I love it. It's been great.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:03:11] So back up a little bit because I believe you were working for- in software tech and then you went and did some contract work and consulting out on your own for a little bit. Correct? And then you went back in?
Nicole Klemp [00:03:22] Yeah, good point. So I did a little stint after my first child was born, I took well, I guess I should back up even further. So I did. I said I was mostly for the last ten years in software, but I did do a stint at a financial services company and I found that I really did not like that. So but after that, I had my first child and decided to take a little time off. So I stayed home with him for about 10 11 months and then to get back into work, I started doing some consulting and freelance work, and then that ended up leading into another full time career. So then I ended up working for a company full time after that. But yeah, it was a little bit of a dip out and dip back in situation. But it did give me the opportunity to kind of see, you know, how that would go. And I think that was even earlier on in my career. And I feel like it was a little easier this time around because I have those connections built from all of my, my work at different companies. I've made a lot of, you know, former colleagues, former bosses that, you know, are familiar with my work that I've been able to then- they've hired me then on a freelance basis. So that's that's been helpful. When I first did that kind of short stint in contracting, I didn't have that network built quite yet. And so it was a little harder to get those jobs. Whereas now that I've had that, that professional network that's grown, it's been a lot easier.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:04:51] So I think that's a good point. Talk to us a little bit about how you built that reputation because I think it's clearly your your work speaks for yourself and you've built these relationships with people and maintain them as you've left companies that they're still willing to hire you on. So talk to a little bit, talk to us a little bit about how you built that reputation and how you ensured that you never burned any bridges.
Nicole Klemp [00:05:12] Yeah, I mean, some of my best friends have come from, you know, from jobs that I've worked in and coworkers that I've met. And, you know, every company I've worked for, every side gig I've done, I've always tried to maintain those connections and stay in touch with those folks and be a resource to them if I can. And you know, when you do that and when you, you know, give it your all at your craft, I think people come to know you as someone they can rely on and someone who does quality work. And then, you know, you'll build that reputation with those folks and just staying connected with people, even if it's just a every six months, you send them an email and check in and see how things are or, you know, comment on LinkedIn or something, you know. Just, I think I've always tried to keep those, you know, connections there in some way, and you never know when that person might come back around five years from now, you know, maybe they work at a company that you're interested in working for, or maybe they can connect you with someone that you wanted to be in contact with. It's amazing how people are so willing to help you if you've been helpful to them and you've always, you know, given your time to others, they'll always return the favor, you know, 9 times out of 10. So I think just maintaining relationships and, you know, just, you know, grabbing coffee if someone reaches out and says, "Hey." I actually had this this morning, I had an email from a former coworker and she had a friend who's I think young in her career, maybe just out of college, and she's interested in doing something similar to what I do. And she asked if I would mind, you know, taking some time to meet with her. And those are always things you should do if you can. I mean, yeah, you don't get anything out of it. I'm not going to get anything from this girl. I'm not expecting anything from her, other than a nice conversation. But down the road, you never know. You may need to reach out to her for some reason, and it's great to have those connections. And so I always encourage people to always take that coffee, always take that meeting, give that recommendation to someone, and it always comes back around.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:07:19] Yeah, I think that's a great point to approach it with, not "what's in it for me," but "what can I do for this other person?" And then it does come back around. You never know, like you said, a couple of years later, all of a sudden you're looking for something you're like, "Oh my goodness, I didn't know this person now is in that industry. And so now I have a connection," and I agree, it's all about paying it forward too, right? So somebody in your career has had that coffee with you. I know I have had plenty of informational meetings with people as I've been looking to switch industries or do something different and people have taken their time for me. So paying it forward, and I think it's important to also protect our networks. So you know who in your network you can, you know, like "I'm going to introduce you to Nicole," or you know who not to based on keeping your reputation. And I think part of building that network as well is always doing what you say you're going to do, no matter how small or large.
Nicole Klemp [00:08:05] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a great point, Chrissy, because you know, there can be times where maybe you've worked with someone and they didn't, you know, they weren't the best or they didn't do good quality work. And then if they need a recommendation, that's tough because, like you said, you have to protect your network and you don't want to recommend someone that's not going to be good for that person. So you have to be kind of careful and about who you recommend and when. So that's a good point.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:08:34] Yeah, most definitely. So talk to us a little bit about how you weighed the pros and cons of working for a company where you have benefits and you have some sort of accountability and you also have an understanding of the workflow and stability versus going out on your own. I know you said that you had before you made that final leap, you had a couple side gigs. But how did you make that decision? And kind of weigh those pros and cons of the two lifestyles?
Nicole Klemp [00:09:03] Yeah, I mean, it was a big decision and and you know, one that my husband and I talked about quite a bit because, you know, working- some of the benefits of working in the tech industry is very competitive pay, great benefits, perks, all that kind of stuff. So I had gotten used to, you know, a certain salary and a certain, you know, great- like the best health insurance you can get because especially my last company was a Bay Area company and they're very competitive because of that. You know, they have to compete for that engineering talent and they're always offering kind of the best of the best when it comes to pay and benefits. So kind of letting that all go and going to work for myself means I don't get any more health benefits or paid time off or, you know, perks or any of that kind of stuff. So weighing that with the benefits that I was going to get, you know, from more flexibility in my work life and being able to choose the projects that I work on and with whom I work with and, you know, I really did- I think I did at one point have like a pros and cons, you know, list that I was looking at. And I think the other thing is was making sure that I would have enough, you know, client work to know that I am going to make, you know, kind of the amount of money that I need to make, you know, for us to be still comfortable and all of that. And I was fortunate, you know, having a spouse that I could be on his health insurance plan because otherwise I would have to find my own kind of plan and all of that, which is probably another challenge for some folks. But yeah, it was just I decided at the end of the day, you know that that pro list was just going to outweigh, you know, the kind of the risks of of doing your own work without, you know, working for a company. And that was what I decided. So.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:10:59] And what has it been like in terms of Work-Life Balance? So I understand when you work with for yourself, you can choose, Hey, I'm not going to work for two hours, I'm going to go do x y z. But also you have deliverables. So are you working late after your kids go to bed? How do you find that? That balance so you're not working all the time or you're letting deadlines get away from you because you're doing too many personal things.
Nicole Klemp [00:11:21] Yeah, no, that's a great question because when I first started doing kind of side, you know, doing this on the side, I was doing a lot of nights after the kids are in bed or weekends, going to the coffee shop and trying to get work done. But now that I'm doing this full time, I really try to keep it within that kind of, you know, eight to five, eight to four, you know? But with a lot of flexibility built in. So like right now, I'm here at the lovely AKPsi offices and I can do that because I make my own schedule. So I think for me, you know, I do my best when my kids are not home. So my youngest is in preschool and he goes, you know, all day and then my other son is in third grade. So when they're at school, you know, from basically like eight to my son gets off the bus around three is when I get my bulk of my work done. And then, you know, if I need to jump on in the evening or something, I do, but I really try to keep it within that time so that the evenings are family time and, you know, getting things done around the house and all that. And then I try to keep it pretty limited on the weekends. And even sometimes I'll try to keep a Friday free, you know, for, like you said, running errands and, you know, going to the gym, that kind of personal stuff. But I think I've found that I have to kind of sit at my desk and really like... pretend that I'm like at the office kind of situation and my husband's down the hall in his office, working from home as well. So really trying to keep it really like I would at any other job. And kind of that structure helps me a lot. I really have to have that structure.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:12:58] So what has it been like going from being in an office where you have coworkers and people you can bounce ideas off of and collaborate and having that community to going to an office of one? You mentioned your husband's down the hallway, but going to that, you know, it could be isolating at times.
Nicole Klemp [00:13:14] Yeah, yeah. We run into each other in the hallway or at the coffee maker like you would an other coworker. But yeah, I really- I think in 2020, going to when I was, even when I was still working, but being fully virtual, I did really miss that in office interaction and, you know, being in a meeting with a team in person and all of that. I think I mourned for it a little bit at the beginning of 2020. But then I think like a lot of people, I adjusted and got used to it. One thing that helps me is, you know, grabbing coffee or grabbing lunch with friends or, you know, other people in my network and just getting out of the house sometimes. And even if it's just to run an errand, just getting out a little bit is helpful. So what about you? How has it- because you're back in the office now, right?
Chrissy Vasquez [00:14:07] We actually are working remote, so we have the option to have a dedicated office at the building or you can just pop in and work or you can work fully from home. So I work from home most days. I have this great ambition of I'm going to go in two afternoons a week just to get a different change of pace and get a break from my coworkers who are two dogs that need a lot of attention and hugs throughout the day. But I just haven't quite gotten there yet. So maybe after the first of the year. It's definitely- I feel like it's been something that I've been doing over a handful of years back when I was a VP for a national nonprofit. I traveled almost every other week, but when I wasn't on the road in different markets, I was at home working because I know hunger had a local office that was for the local staff. So I had already kind of started getting used to that a little bit. So I do find that I can let the whole day go by at my desk and realize, "Oh my gosh, it's two o'clock. I haven't had lunch yet, or I need to go take the dogs out, or maybe I should take them for a walk." I do find that I probably put in more hours than when I was commuting, not having an hour commute when I used to work downtown each way. You fill that time with work, but it's also flexible and nice. Like, for example, took an extended lunch break and I'm here right now or, you know, you have to run out and do something. So it's striking that balance and being careful not to work too much, which I never thought would be the problem when you work remote, but you fill your time pretty quickly.
Nicole Klemp [00:15:36] Yeah, that's, I 100 percent agree. I think, you know, the time can get away from you and you just like, realize you haven't gotten out of your chair, whereas when you're in office, sometimes you'll get a coworker will need something or you'll, you know, get out a little bit more. But when you're just by yourself, it can get where you just like, it's uber focused. And yeah, get to kind of take a break.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:15:57] And I feel like in the hybrid virtual working environment, we have way more meetings than we used to. It just seems so easy. Like, let's throw teams meeting or a Zoom meeting on the calendar for a half hour to talk through this. And the next thing you know your calendar's full of back to back meetings and you're like, "When am I going to actually do my work?".
Nicole Klemp [00:16:14] Yes. Yeah, I think one of the things that really I started to get burned out in my career was just the meetings, just all the time meetings. And I think now that I have fewer of them, I feel like I can get into a little bit of a better workflow.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:16:27] Yes, definitely.
Nicole Klemp [00:16:29] So let me flip the script on you. I want to hear about your career transition and going from the primarily nonprofit world for so many years. And now you're in, you know, private at a private company and tell us about that transition.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:16:43] Yeah, I also studied marketing when I was at Arizona State, and that's where I joined AKPsi and then came and worked on the professional staff for almost seven years. Fell into fundraising. It was my second job after the fraternity. They came to me and said, "Hey, we need you to write this fundraising appeal." Like, sure, I'll take a stab at it and thought through logically what would cause me to want to open it and reply and had great success and found myself now in fundraising, which tended to be how it happened back in the day. And now people are going to school for fundraising. But that certainly wasn't what happened.
Nicole Klemp [00:17:18] You did the school of hard knocks for fundraising.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:17:19] Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, I worked for several nonprofits in the fundraising capacity, and then I was working for a local nonprofit that had national roots and so was promoted to vice president of operations. And so with over 6 of our 12 markets across the country, like I said, was traveling every other week. So had, you know, top level status on Southwest and Marriott, I hardly ever saw my family and friends, but it was very mission driven work, and so I felt good about the work that we were doing, helping those experiencing homelessness get back on into employment and housing. And then there were some reorganization. And so I lost my position, my position and my peer. We were both split into two regional positions, and so we didn't have a position anymore at the organization. And so I found another position within fundraising. And when the pandemic hit, we couldn't afford to keep all the staff. And so my position, it was kind of one of those last in first out type situations. So my position was cut and I found myself feeling extremely burned out from nonprofit life. So I think we talked to Steve about, you know, that badge of honor. I definitely think it's something that a lot of nonprofit fundraisers wear, is, you know, they kind of pride themselves on how many hours can they put in and how much money can they raise? How many relationships, how many events can they be at? It's definitely a nonstop grind and hustle, and I don't mean to use hustle in a negative word, but it is. It's a hustle. When you're waking up in the morning and you're like, Oh my goodness, I have $15000 to raise this month before the month ends so everybody can get paid and we can serve everybody. You know, it definitely does become a hustle. So I took a look at what do I want my life to be? You know, that hustle back when I was in my mid 20s is a lot different than it is now in my early 40s. So really kind of looking at what that Work-Life Balance would look like. It was a lot more important to me. I was missing out with time with my friends and family. We only have an infinite amount of time. And so I wanted to make sure to maximize that. At that time, I started doing some contract work. I had done a little bit on the side to that point, and so I started doing some more while I looked for the next opportunity, and really enjoyed doing it. So you spoke in the last episode about how you really get to hone in on what you like to do versus having to do the whole, the whole basket of it. And so, for example, I love managing people, when people want to be coached and they have that ambition. But people that, you know, "This is just a job. I'm just here to do it. I don't want to contribute. I don't-" you know, that kind of attitude. I don't enjoy managing those people. But as you know, in management, you don't get to pick and choose those attitudes all the time. So definitely looking at, you know, could I do contract work that would be meaningful to me, support organizations that I felt were doing great work, and get honestly a refresh for some really bad leadership. There's some bad leadership in nonprofit and it can really drain you out pretty quickly, when you have a staff of everybody that's there for the mission and for the people you serve and then you have a leader that doesn't seem to really care about that much past the surface, it can be really demoralizing and hard to do your job. So, I had some friends that were working in health care marketing and actually one of my former staff members was working there as well. And so culture was a really big thing for me. I feel like that was the one thing that was always missing in a lot of companies I worked for and organizations I worked for was that good, solid culture and not just lip service culture, right? It's the culture where this is what we say and the leadership actually matches what they say. So this company is a woman owned company and I had the opportunity to interview, and it's so funny because I had interviewed for several positions prior to that. Different CEOs of nonprofits or what have you. And the process was so long it was like four and five months, and this process was wrapped up in three weeks. And I'm like, Is there something wrong with this? Like, this feels so different? But I think that's when I knew it was the right fit from both sides. And so I do a lot of tactical work now. I do account management for pharma companies and we do physician to physician marketing. And so it's a little bit of a shift, and I've had to kind of wrap my head around what that shift means and what that identity means. But I've actually enjoyed the tactical work. It's been a nice break from having to be the person that has to have all the answers and figure out the direction and, you know, problem solve every single thing that comes through the door.
Nicole Klemp [00:21:54] Yeah, that's a great point and follow up question, I guess you talked about going from that mission driven nonprofit work to, you know, I guess, a different type of mission, but maybe not so directly that you were doing before. How has that change been? How do you stay motivated with kind of this new type of mission that you're working towards?
Chrissy Vasquez [00:22:18] Yeah, I had to really take a step back and evaluate, OK, it's not that direct service where I'm one step away from somebody who's changing their life completely, but I'm now a part of a process and a part of an organization that is still helping people improve their lives. And so there's a lot of acceptance that comes in with that. And, you know, we've talked a lot about tradeoffs I really had to look at... Prior to this from, you know, the first 20 years of my career, I was working to live. It was almost addicting because you would have, you know, you saw the direct impact of "the harder I work, the more people get employed," or, "the harder I work, more family reunification." But then on the other hand, you had for every 10 people you served, you had eight people not make it and two people would. So that was very draining. But then as soon as that one person made it, you know, it filled it back up and you were addicted to it. So it was a very kind of addicting cycle from that standpoint. And I didn't realize how much my identity as a person was wrapped up in the job I did because I went from live to work to now I'm working to live. I literally go to my job. I do a good job at it. I have impact. But when five o'clock or six o'clock, whenever my day wraps up, I can then have my life. And it doesn't have to be connected to my job. So it was an interesting transition and it was a really hard transition to be able to identify that. It took me several months to be able to put in words what I was feeling. Because even though I went to this new company where there was great culture and was really enjoying the work, I still felt like there was something missing.
Nicole Klemp [00:23:52] Yeah, that identity piece, so so what is your identity today now that you're not fundraising, Chrissy?
Chrissy Vasquez [00:24:01] Well, I still fundraise.
Nicole Klemp [00:24:04] But you do it on your own time.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:24:05] I do it on my own time and I do it on my own timeline. I still do some contract work on the side for some organizations to keep one foot in fundraising because I do love it and I love helping other people raise that money to be able to achieve their missions. And that I do volunteer work. That's very important to me, but it's nice that again, it's on my terms and I'm still accepting this new identity, right? So getting involved. I used to do triathlon. I used to do Iron Man's, and I haven't done it in several years, so I'm excited to get back to that next year now that I have a more predictable schedule. So, yeah, it's still evolving and it's still developing, and it's still a little bit of a grieving process, but also an excitement of what can I be as I kind of reinvent myself?
Nicole Klemp [00:24:53] Yeah, I know exactly what you mean by that, that kind of that grieving process, like I identified as a woman in tech, you know, not a coder or anything like that, but being in that world for so many years. And then even though some of my clients are still in software, it's- I'm not living in that identity anymore. And so it's- but when you're still associated with so many people in that same, you know, that same world, it can be like, "Well, how do I fit here now?" And trying to figure out, you know, who you are and what kind of your piece of the puzzle is now and all of that.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:25:27] Yeah, it's funny. You mentioned when you still work with those people. So today's Giving Tuesday, and it's so nice not to have that stress of like, "Oh my gosh, we have to raise all this money because that's what society says on this day." But watching my friends that are still in it, you know, it's their all day thing, And you know-
Nicole Klemp [00:25:42] You can almost feel like, "Oh, I'm glad it's not me today."
Chrissy Vasquez [00:25:45] I know it's very nice to not be, and to be the one getting the thank you calls instead of having to make them, but. Nicole real quick. Before we wrap up, I have a couple of final questions for you. One. What advice would you give somebody that is looking to- and you've gone both ways, so I think you can kind of give one piece of advice for somebody that's looking to get back into kind of more of a corporate culture and then vice versa, somebody that's looking to go out on their own.
Nicole Klemp [00:26:11] I would say if you're in one or the other and looking to transition, just give it a little maybe a, like, dip your toe in kind of thing rather than kind of diving headfirst. I feel like I've seen people who have made drastic changes and they just jumped right in and then realized kind of the grass wasn't greener on the other side. And so I know it was really helpful for me when I was kind of thinking about going freelance to just kind of start doing a little bit on the side. Again, it was a lot of work. I was doing, you know, my extra stuff kind of on evenings and weekends, but it was worth it because like I said, it helped me realize I was enjoying that work more than my full time, you know, corporate work. So if there's a way that you can do that or if you can even job shadow someone or, you know, kind of do those coffee interviews with some folks in the industry you're interested in or a company that you're interested in, just do your due diligence before really taking that step and then making sure it's something that you want to do. I mean, you can always change later. If it's down the road, you decide it wasn't for you. But I think the more you can research and talk to people and try to try it out a little bit, try the hat on and see how it feels kind of is always good. If you're looking to, you know, go from, I guess, contract to corporate that I made that transition before, you know, in that last kind of freelance stint that I had. And it was nice because you're in a unique position where you're doing your thing and whether it's freelancing, consulting or whatever you're doing or just unemployment, you can be choosy about what that company is that you're going to go to and make sure their values align with yours. It's a mission that you can get behind, you know, like, like you said with your, you know, woman owned company is a leadership that you can get behind a culture that you can get behind. I think, you know, be choosy about that. Don't just say, I think I want to get into, you know, this kind of corporate job or this industry and then just take the first company that makes you an offer. Right now is like the best time to find a job because there's so many opportunities out there. And you know, it's so competitive for talent that you can really be choosy and find the best fit for you, so I think just do your homework and, you know, don't jump into a decision, just really make an informed decision.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:28:34] That's great advice, and I think the informational interviews, meet as many people as you can in the industry or the type of position, people love to, you know, sit down for a cup of coffee. Invite them up for a cup of coffee and just pick their brain is often helpful. End the conversation with "Is there anybody else you think I should be talking to?" And see if they'll be willing to make some introductions. And I do think it's important to kind of call out that if you're thinking about putting your toe into contract work, it's important to know how your employer feels about that because some employers do prohibit that. So just make sure you're not ruining your full time opportunity by trying something. So final question for you. Signature question. Tell us about a time when your personal values were challenged. What happened, and how did you handle it?
Nicole Klemp [00:29:18] Oh, that's a tough one. I would say I can speak a little more general to this, but being in marketing in the software industry for several years, I came across this at multiple companies. So not, you know, I won't throw any under the bus. But I think one thing in that industry is it's very kind of cutthroat, really competitive. And so when you're marketing a solution or software, there's expectations that you're going to make things sound a little better than they really are. So a lot of companies will, you know, market products that are like on the road map three years from now, that kind of situation. So it's kind of a gray area, like I would never participate in just flat out lying about something or misrepresenting something. But there's so much we'll say wiggle room there that that they play around with about what something can do or how it can change your life and how it's amazing and innovative and you know, all of the buzzwords. So I think that always rubbed me the wrong way a little bit, I guess, because I, you know, pride myself on being an honest person and always representing things in an honest and accurate way. So I always did feel like there were times in different roles where I was, you know, asked to kind of make something sound really good and maybe it doesn't quite live up to that. So I think, yeah, that's probably... It's not a specific instance, but it's a kind of something that always ate at me a little bit and a reason that I kind of was getting a little disenfranchized with that industry I think in general, just because- and not all companies are that way, but in general, it's kind of a thing, you know. You know, you don't want to get, like, to the Theranos situation or anything like that.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:31:07] I was just ginna say, don't go Elizabeth Holmes on anybody.
Nicole Klemp [00:31:08] But yeah, there's definitely a culture of "make this sound a little better than it is." And when you're a writer, you literally have to write the words to make that product or service sound better. So it doesn't quite align with my values. So.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:31:21] Hanks for sharing. That reminds me of a couple of times when I was asked to write grants and I was like, "Well, we're not quite doing that outcome the way you say that, you want me to say it." And that's, not good. And sometimes you don't realize it until after the event has happened and you're like, "Oh, maybe that didn't go the way we probably should have done it."
Nicole Klemp [00:31:41] Yeah. Or are you just unwillingly or excuse me- unwittingly write something that you kind of have been told is the way it is. And then you find out later that wasn't quite the right way.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:31:51] That's how a lot of grants were. I was like, "Oh, so we're really not doing that type of programing. OK, got it." So. Well, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your experience. It's been great to talk to you. And we wish you luck as you continue to build your consulting business.
Nicole Klemp [00:32:04] And same to you, ma'am.
Chrissy Vasquez [00:32:05] Thank you.
Finn Lambouris [00:32:09] Thanks for listening to Business Edge. If you have questions, comments or topic suggestions for us, email businessedge@akpsi.org.